Do Not go and recycle your Red Top batteries if you voted NO to the rule change.If you voted YES then by all means buy two pair or more for each vehicle you own. Here is part of a post I made on the Nebraska discussion board. http://nebraskapowerdrive.proboards.com/index.cgi
In the past, I have had first hand experience with flooded cell deep cycle, flooded cell SLI, and the current SLI AGM batteries and it is from these experiences I have learned
Most batteries become unsuitable for competition due to improper charging methods and poor off-season periodic maintenance. The number of cycles or the number of possible cycles is not a large factor in the life of a battery.
Deep cycle batteries do not have the same power or energy density as SLI batteries.
C-10, C-20, CCA, or CA ratings on batteries have little meaning for this type of use.The RC does seem to have a correlation to our use.The RC multiplied by 0.4 will give you a good approximation of the one-hour current draw limitations.
Amp Hr is a deceptive tool to use to predict the amount of work you can get from a battery a much better tool would be Watt-Min or KW-Hr.
Look for an AGM SLI that meets the 73lb battery pack requirements, apparently it has already been found and this is a quote from the NE board
We have experimented with batteries that are slightly overweight and can get our junker car up to 53 miles an hour for an hour.Brent Essink
So, here are my conclusions Yellow Top batteries cost more than Red Top batteries.Both Yellow Top and Red Top batteries will have about the same life expectancy and about the same KW-Hr output.
Thank youRuss
electrathon said
Nov 2, 2009
I moved this from the rule change section to the battery section.
The votes have been turned in, we well be going faster / more agressively next year. At this point I think there will be a lot of discussion about if it will be from having deep cycle batteries or becouse we no can use larger starting batteries. Please post your thoughts on this. If you have ran tests, please contribute.
The way I understand it: Deep cycle batteries would be the perfect match for us if we ran 3 hour races. With one hour races they tend to "hold back" the amperage to release later. Sort of like dumping water out of a bucket. A starting battery is a 5 gallon bucket full of water, a deep cycle is a 6 gallon bucket full of spunges, full of water. Turn them both on their side and which one will spill out the most water.
bd64 said
Nov 2, 2009
Supercharge Your Batteries
The J-Hudson Charging Method
by Jay Henderson
Raymond Central PowerDrive Instructor
This process came about because so many batteries tested were too low to be used in Power Drive Endurance Competition.
Some new batteries are not charged up evenly; the cells are not all equal.This process could be called cell equalization.Charging even good batteries this way may improve their performance as well.Repeating this process weekly may not further improve the amp rating.It is not necessary until the batteries have gone unused for awhile.
Equipment needed:
A 20 gallon (approximate) container at least 7 10 deep.This container will need a method of heating the water to approximately 135 degrees.A water heater element and a control to set the temperature seems to work well.
A battery charger with a manual and an automatic setting.
A multimeter to check volts and amperage (3 would be handy to have).
An infrared thermometer is very quick to check water and battery temperatures.
Two 10 to 12 guage jumper wires with clips on the ends about 18 20 long.
Extension cord with a house light dimmer on one wire.
Procedure:
1.Batteries must be fully charged on the automatic setting.Set the batteries in the container on top of something to keep them slightly above the bottom of the container.The water needs to surround them.Now add cold tap water approximately 55-65 degrees.The water level needs to stay about three fourths to one half of an inch below the top of the batteries.
2.Connect one battery charger to two (2) batteries.Set the charger on the manual setting.Put a small amount of soapy water on the two battery vents to detect gassing.
Optional extension cord usage:
Plug the extension cord into the AC outlet, then plug the charger into the extension cord.This can be used to limit voltage and amperes thereby further controlling this process.
3.Plug in charger and watch the vents for bubbles.Check the battery voltage often when one of the batteries starts gassing, stop the charging process.Voltage will be approximately 16.10 plus or minus.
4.Turn on the heating element and warm up the batteries until they reach 118 degrees.No more than 120 degrees.Check battery temperature getting a reading from the lead posts.The posts are hollow.Best temps are taken right on top of the post.
When batteries are up to temperature 118-120 degrees remove the water and test for optimum amperage output.
I have data sheets showing battery output " Red Top" before and after using this charging method. They are in a table format and I do not know how well they will paste into this format.
russ
bd64 said
Nov 3, 2009
Battery Test Data
Battery B1Manufactures release date March 2005
Delivery date February 2006
Data collection June 2,2008
Battery Temperature 70FOpen circuit voltage 12.84V
Battery charged on automatic 10Amp charger
Time
Voltage
Current
Power
0 +
12.05
38
---
3
12.00
38
456
6
11.84
38
450
9
11.82
38
449
12
11.80
38
448
15
11.77
38
447
18
11.72
38
445
21
11.68
38
443
24
11.63
38
442
27
11.57
38
440
30
11.51
38
437
33
11.45
38
432
36
11.37
38
429
39
11.29
38
426
42
11.20
38
422
45
11.10
38
417
48
10.98
38
412
51
10.83
38
404
54
10.62
38
403
55
10.5
38
---
Total Work through the cycle 23885 Watt-Minutes or 0.398 KW HR
Average voltage 11.8V as per manufactures half duty cycle
Average Amp-Hr output 33.7 amps
Even though this battery spent excessive time on the charger it end up being under charged.
bd64 said
Nov 3, 2009
Battery B1 using the J-Hudson charging method
Data collection July 2009
Battery temperature 118F Open circuit voltage 12.96V
Time
Voltage
Current
Power
0+
12.28
40
----
3
12.33
40
493
6
12.29
40
492
9
12.24
40
490
12
12.19
40
488
15
12.13
40
485
18
12.08
40
483
21
12.01
40
480
24
11.95
40
478
27
11.88
40
475
30
11.81
40
472
33
11.73
40
469
36
11.66
40
466
39
11.57
40
463
42
11.48
40
459
45
11.38
40
455
48
11.26
40
450
51
11.12
40
445
54
10.94
40
438
57
10.66
40
426
58
10.5
40
----
Total Work through the cycle 27250 Watt-Minutes or 0.454 KW-HR
Average calculated voltage 11.77V half duty cycle
Average Amp Hr output 38.5 amps using 11.8V average voltage
This battery appears to be full charged and suitable for use in competition.
All tests were performed with + or 0.1 amp precision.
The same type of results were achieved independently by Jay Henderson of Ramond Central, Tony Cantral of Wayne, Bill Kalblinger of North Platte, and myself.
radigan said
Nov 3, 2009
Thanks for the information. There is so much to learn even after years of doing this.
Anonymous said
Nov 9, 2009
In my electric car program we decided to continue to use red top batteries even after the rule change but we trying to find a combination that weighs 72 pounds.
does anyone know a combination of redtops that weighs 72 lbs?
bd64 said
Nov 10, 2009
Sam you need to remember that your battery pack is only as good as your weakest cell. Just increasing weight will be of no benifit, but if you decide to try anyway put your larger battery on the negative side of your electrical system.
bd64 said
Dec 14, 2009
Here is some preliminary info, I received some data --well alot of data from Barry Wilson of CR Kennedy that his students collected using real time telemetry from a car setting on a dyno. Five spread sheets of 1200 rows and five columns of data.
Here are my preliminary findings
Average voltage over 48 min 22.74 volts but over a 60 min period it would be 18.19 volts.
Total work done by yellow tops 44,754 watt minutes or .746 killowatt hours for the battery pack or .372 kilowatt hours per battery.This is extremely poor!!! Our red tops not fit to use in competition yielded .398 kilowatt hours before the J-Hudson treatment and .454 kilowatt hours after.That is per battery and.796 KW Hr per pack before and .908 KW Hr after the treatment.
I am sure glad all of those that voted yes will be buying new batteries ---
I will post more info when I get to run my own tests so I know that I am comparing apples to apples.
russ
stan r said
Jan 18, 2010
electric motor speed is governed by voltage, not amperage, therefore if your car is using red tops (24) volts it will go the same speed with yellow tops (24) volts. With the yellow tops, if it goes faster the reason is that you now have more power, (amps), available & can now attain full rpm. Previously with the red tops you were not reaching maximum rpm so you went slower. Your car wasn't geared properly. Possibly excess weight or aerodynamics was playing a part in your top speed.
Anonymous said
Feb 19, 2010
How long did the batteries sit after they were in the 118 degree bath? In other words, was the J-Hudson battery pack allowed to cool to room temp before being tested?
Were both batteries (the regularly charged battery and the J-Hudson charged battery) tested at the same ambient temperature?
bd64 said
Feb 20, 2010
The battery temp is on the top of each page, you need to keep the batteries warm or hot until use in competition. Heat alone without the J-Hudson treatment will increase output about 3/4 amp per battery pack.
Anonymous said
Feb 21, 2010
If the J-Hudson batteries were warmer than the other batteries, then the results don't mean a thing. To make this fair, warm up the regularily charged batteries up to the same temp and see if there is still an advantage to the J-hudson method.
bd64 said
Feb 21, 2010
Do as you wish.
Anonymous said
Feb 22, 2010
What other methods do people use to heat the batteries? How long does it take to heat them and does the 118 degrees apply to methods other than the J-Hudson method?
Thanks...
stan r said
Feb 23, 2010
we used a plastic insulated cooler large enough for 4 batteries. Make a hole in the side large enough for the end of an electric hair dryer whose temperature will be controlled by a thermostat from a hot water heater. Separate the batteries with 1" wood strips sp air can circulate between them. You can leave the dryer on 24 hr. because of the thermostat
monkeywithawrench said
Mar 17, 2010
ok i am confused about the weight of the batteries that is allowed. in the rule book, it says both 67lbs is the max limit and it says 72lbs is the max limit. can someone please help before i go battery shopping. thanks
electrathon said
Mar 17, 2010
For the 2010 season the weight was raised to 73 pounds. Last season it was 67 pounds.
monkeywithawrench said
Mar 17, 2010
thanks. someone might want to correct the rules hand book, as it says both 67 and 73 lbs in the weight limit.
electrathon said
Mar 17, 2010
Are you reading online of a hard copy? What pages are you seeing the 67 lb part?
monkeywithawrench said
Mar 18, 2010
http://electrathonamerica.org/Rule_Book_&_Forms_files/HANDBOOK%202010-11%20smaller.pdf page 32 and halfway down page 25
electrathon said
Mar 18, 2010
Thanks, I passed the word on. It should be fixed soon.
Do Not go and recycle your Red Top batteries if you voted NO to the rule change. If you voted YES then by all means buy two pair or more for each vehicle you own. Here is part of a post I made on the Nebraska discussion board. http://nebraskapowerdrive.proboards.com/index.cgi
In the past, I have had first hand experience with flooded cell deep cycle, flooded cell SLI, and the current SLI AGM batteries and it is from these experiences I have learned
Look for an AGM SLI that meets the 73lb battery pack requirements, apparently it has already been found and this is a quote from the NE board
We have experimented with batteries that are slightly overweight and can get our junker car up to 53 miles an hour for an hour. Brent Essink
So, here are my conclusions Yellow Top batteries cost more than Red Top batteries. Both Yellow Top and Red Top batteries will have about the same life expectancy and about the same KW-Hr output.
Thank youRuss
Supercharge Your Batteries
The J-Hudson Charging Method
by Jay Henderson
Raymond Central PowerDrive Instructor
This process came about because so many batteries tested were too low to be used in Power Drive Endurance Competition.
Some new batteries are not charged up evenly; the cells are not all equal. This process could be called cell equalization. Charging even good batteries this way may improve their performance as well. Repeating this process weekly may not further improve the amp rating. It is not necessary until the batteries have gone unused for awhile.
Equipment needed:
Procedure:
1. Batteries must be fully charged on the automatic setting. Set the batteries in the container on top of something to keep them slightly above the bottom of the container. The water needs to surround them. Now add cold tap water approximately 55-65 degrees. The water level needs to stay about three fourths to one half of an inch below the top of the batteries.
2. Connect one battery charger to two (2) batteries. Set the charger on the manual setting. Put a small amount of soapy water on the two battery vents to detect gassing.
Optional extension cord usage:
Plug the extension cord into the AC outlet, then plug the charger into the extension cord. This can be used to limit voltage and amperes thereby further controlling this process.
3. Plug in charger and watch the vents for bubbles. Check the battery voltage often when one of the batteries starts gassing, stop the charging process. Voltage will be approximately 16.10 plus or minus.
4. Turn on the heating element and warm up the batteries until they reach 118 degrees. No more than 120 degrees. Check battery temperature getting a reading from the lead posts. The posts are hollow. Best temps are taken right on top of the post.
When batteries are up to temperature 118-120 degrees remove the water and test for optimum amperage output.I have data sheets showing battery output " Red Top" before and after using this charging method. They are in a table format and I do not know how well they will paste into this format.
russ
Battery Test Data
Battery B1 Manufactures release date March 2005
Delivery date February 2006
Data collection June 2,2008
Battery Temperature 70F Open circuit voltage 12.84V
Battery charged on automatic 10Amp charger
Time
Voltage
Current
Power
0 +
12.05
38
---
3
12.00
38
456
6
11.84
38
450
9
11.82
38
449
12
11.80
38
448
15
11.77
38
447
18
11.72
38
445
21
11.68
38
443
24
11.63
38
442
27
11.57
38
440
30
11.51
38
437
33
11.45
38
432
36
11.37
38
429
39
11.29
38
426
42
11.20
38
422
45
11.10
38
417
48
10.98
38
412
51
10.83
38
404
54
10.62
38
403
55
10.5
38
---
Total Work through the cycle 23885 Watt-Minutes or 0.398 KW HR
Average voltage 11.8V as per manufactures half duty cycle
Average Amp-Hr output 33.7 amps
Even though this battery spent excessive time on the charger it end up being under charged.Battery B1 using the J-Hudson charging method
Data collection July 2009
Battery temperature 118F Open circuit voltage 12.96V
Time
Voltage
Current
Power
0+
12.28
40
----
3
12.33
40
493
6
12.29
40
492
9
12.24
40
490
12
12.19
40
488
15
12.13
40
485
18
12.08
40
483
21
12.01
40
480
24
11.95
40
478
27
11.88
40
475
30
11.81
40
472
33
11.73
40
469
36
11.66
40
466
39
11.57
40
463
42
11.48
40
459
45
11.38
40
455
48
11.26
40
450
51
11.12
40
445
54
10.94
40
438
57
10.66
40
426
58
10.5
40
----
Total Work through the cycle 27250 Watt-Minutes or 0.454 KW-HR
Average calculated voltage 11.77V half duty cycle
Average Amp Hr output 38.5 amps using 11.8V average voltage
This battery appears to be full charged and suitable for use in competition.
All tests were performed with + or 0.1 amp precision.
The same type of results were achieved independently by Jay Henderson of Ramond Central, Tony Cantral of Wayne, Bill Kalblinger of North Platte, and myself.
In my electric car program we decided to continue to use red top batteries even after the rule change but we trying to find a combination that weighs 72 pounds.
does anyone know a combination of redtops that weighs 72 lbs?
Here are my preliminary findings
Average voltage over 48 min 22.74 volts but over a 60 min period it would be 18.19 volts.
Total work done by yellow tops 44,754 watt minutes or .746 killowatt hours for the battery pack or .372 kilowatt hours per battery. This is extremely poor!!! Our red tops not fit to use in competition yielded .398 kilowatt hours before the J-Hudson treatment and .454 kilowatt hours after. That is per battery and .796 KW Hr per pack before and .908 KW Hr after the treatment.
I am sure glad all of those that voted yes will be buying new batteries ---I will post more info when I get to run my own tests so I know that I am comparing apples to apples.
russ
Were both batteries (the regularly charged battery and the J-Hudson charged battery) tested at the same ambient temperature?
What other methods do people use to heat the batteries? How long does it take to heat them and does the 118 degrees apply to methods other than the J-Hudson method?
Thanks...