It seems that this rule has been removed from the rulebook. Not sure when this happened.
Lap counting: In the NW we run a lot of races each spring. We have a lot of cars show up (40+ not unusual). Historically we often had a lot of mistakes in the counting process, I can tell so horror stories about this. A couple years ago we got a lap counting system that uses transponders that register when the cars drive over a grid we tape down to the track. It has eliminated almost all of the counting errors. Almost. Even at its worst, it is far more accurate than the hand counts were. This is no consolation to someone whose laps are missed though.
Here is my suggestion for this season. Your input is appreciated and encouraged. Once we get started this is going to be the system we use for verifying outcome.
Proposal: Mark Watts and I will announce the unofficial results at the race. Trophies will be awarded for picture purposes and then recollected. If there are no challenges the trophies will be permanently passed out the next week.
If there is a challenge it MUST be made no later than the following Tuesday at noon. There is a $50 per car fee attached to filing a challenge. We will review the lap count tallies (we can see the exact lap times for each car/each lap) looking for errors. If the tallies are not conclusive we will then review the video tape. If we find an error we will correct the posted results. This will always happen before the following Saturday race. If the results are corrected, the fee will be returned. If the results stand, the fee is forfeited. The money will be added to the account that is used to purchase more transponders. Neither Mark nor I will profit from this.
We encourage you to count your own laps too. Not marks a a sheet of paper, those mean nothing. Record the time of each lap. Errors are very easy to spot with this system. The sheet on page 42 of the rulebook is a great example of how to do this. The Sheet on page 43 is a great example of how to miscount the tally.
Other input? Other ideas?
Aaron
Zaine Stapleton said
Feb 25, 2011
Aaron,
since there is a camera at the start line (or possibly other cameras too) who ever is at the start line should say the number of the car passing by the start/finish line. Have an official car counter that relays the car number passing to Mark who is keeping track of cars that crossed or need to get put in manually of the system misses a car.
For instance, if I was about to cross the start/finish line followed by Mike Hodgert, and Shannon Cloud and you were saying the car number, you would say "Car 59, 38, 41" Then if I wasn't caught by the system, Mark would say "59 did not go in" he would then put in my number manually so the lap was accounted for. That would help with getting all of the laps accounted for. Similar to the official sign-in person for getting wristbands.
That would be the only thing I would suggest. I know at most of the races last year, this did not happen and there were some disputes if you know what I mean.
Zaine
-- Edited by Zaine Stapleton on Friday 25th of February 2011 05:39:42 AM
electrathon said
Feb 25, 2011
Generally we do have a person "verbalizing" who is going by. This both helps Mark verify and helps if we are reviewing the tapes. The issue is when 15 cars cross the line in less than 10 seconds. Things pop up so fast and there is little time to review. At some races there are large gaps in the grouping, they are easy. Some are non-stop "pinging" on the counter. That is when we loose track. Things happen so fast sometimes there is no time to backtrack.
Zaine Stapleton said
Feb 25, 2011
Okay, would it help if every single car was legibly readable when they go by? There is a rule that does say that the car's number has to be big enough (6" tall if I remember correclty) and it doesn't conflict with the cars color scheme. I know there were some cool paint jobs last year on the cars, but the numbers blended in so you couldn't read them at all when flying by at 25-60mph.
Maybe Jeff McCaw could print up an assortment of 0-9, that includes red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, brown, white, and black. He would bring these every race so if someone shows up to a race that has numbers on the car that are not legible enough, they could buy a set of number from Jeff for $2 or what ever Jeff wants to price them at. Then place them on the car in the right spots.
Would this be helpful?
Zaine
-- Edited by Zaine Stapleton on Friday 25th of February 2011 06:06:56 AM
electrathon said
Feb 25, 2011
Yes, legibility would help. Generally the only number the camera can see well is the one on the front. The easiest one for the spotter to see is the one on the side. Black or silver cars are all just a blur on the track. Colors stand out well.
Still, this post is more about a challange after the fact. I totally agree that it is best to not get to that point though. But, when we are there we need an official process to handle challanges. Mark and I have spent hours watching tapes to find we did have everything right, in some cases. Some were not right.
mhodgertt said
Feb 27, 2011
Aaron,
This process seems to be fair and a good system. I like the $50 fee for a challenge so that there are not ones that the person is not sure of. Having gone through lap counting systems and videos at a number of races I never enjoyed that process. It often takes longer than the race did to go over the video and see if there are any mistakes. Any one have any suggestions to improve on this process??
Thanks for putting this together.
Mike
electrathon said
Feb 27, 2011
Mike,
Do you know where, when, who took the scoring challenge section out of the rule book? The oldest copy I can find here is the 07/08 book and it is not in it, so it must have been a long time ago. As best I can tell, EA no longer has a process for challenging race outcome. I only see the part about filing a protest for unfair advantage. It does state on page 33 that the camera is used in case a protest is filed, but the protest form states the only reason for protest is for another participant "violating EA design or event rules".
Aaron
mhodgertt said
Feb 27, 2011
Aaron,
No I don't remember it being taken out of the book--but I don't remember there being one for lap and scoring challenges--just for unfair advantages. I think it is something that maybe should be added to next year's NEW handbook. But I don't want to encourage these challenges. As it is now most just accept the results as they are posted after a race.
In the window you have for 2012 rule/handbook ideas I still can not get it to post a message. Maybe (probably) I'm just not smart enough. I would like to get everyone's ideas together if possible and start looking at them. Next year we will come out with a new 2013-2014 handbook---hopefully over the summer. To facilitate this I would like to have a visible place for members to voice their thoughts. Then the board can look these over and make recommendations and then we can vote as a membership on any 'non-safety' issues and the board can vote on any safety issue changes. We NEED to get this done this spring so C. Michael Lewis, who has done the graphics and put our book together the last few years and hopefully will do it again, will have lots of time to get it to me to be printed and ready to send out in September when schools start to register and design their new cars.
drewjet said
Mar 4, 2011
Can you tell me more about your automated lap counter. We are looking into a few different posibilities and wanted to see what all was out there.
Thanks
electrathon said
Mar 5, 2011
The set-up was custom built by a company in Reno. It is not for sale to the public.
There are a few set-ups out there, just make sure that it is designed for carts or motorcycles and not runners. The smaller systems will not be able to catch the cars at the speeds we drive.
As your groups get bigger it becomes more and more of a problem. I can count a 15 car race easily, after you get about 20 cars on the track it gets really tough. We have manually done over 50 on (on PIR) but that was tough. Even on the bigger tracks the cars tend to group, so many tend to pass at the same time.
bd64 said
Mar 6, 2011
electrathon wrote:
Mike,
Do you know where, when, who took the scoring challenge section out of the rule book? The oldest copy I can find here is the 07/08 book and it is not in it, so it must have been a long time ago. As best I can tell, EA no longer has a process for challenging race outcome. I only see the part about filing a protest for unfair advantage. It does state on page 33 that the camera is used in case a protest is filed, but the protest form states the only reason for protest is for another participant "violating EA design or event rules".
Aaron
I checked the 1998 rule book and there was no mention of it either. Did it even exist or was it just something that was misinterpeted?
Zaine Stapleton said
Mar 6, 2011
It was most likely a misinterpreted thing. I looked in my copy of the 1998 version and didn't see any results challenge, just the rule challenge.
electrathon said
Mar 7, 2011
Hmmm...
Hard to believe this has never came up before. I would have sworn it was in there.
In the "video camera" section it states, "A video camera must be placed at the start/finish line and record entire competition. This tape will be used in the event of lap count protest".
Then there is no official way to protest.
Our first ace is on Saturday. Mark and I are hoping to have a consensus before then about this. So far I have the feeling it will be enforced as written unless we get other input.
Aaron
mhodgertt said
Mar 7, 2011
Aaron and all,
I think that during the drivers meeting you will read what you posted earlier on this forum:
Proposal:
"Mark Watts and I will announce the unofficial results at the race. Trophies will be awarded for picture purposes and then recollected. If there are no challenges the trophies will be permanently passed out the next RACE.
If there is a challenge it MUST be made no later than the following Tuesday at noon (3/15 for this race). There is a $50 per car fee attached to filing a challenge. We will review the lap count tallies (we can see the exact lap times for each car/each lap) looking for errors. If the tallies are not conclusive we will then review the video tape. If we find an error we will correct the posted results. This will always happen before the following Saturday race. If the results are corrected, the fee will be returned. If the results stand, the fee is forfeited. The money will be added to the account that is used to purchase more transponders. Neither Mark nor I will profit from this.
We encourage you to count your own laps too. Not marks a a sheet of paper, those mean nothing. Record the time of each lap. Errors are very easy to spot with this system. The sheet on page 42 of the rulebook is a great example of how to do this. The Sheet on page 43 is a great example of how to miscount the tally."
Since no one else has responded with any other ideas or negitive coments on this idea, then this is what we will go with.
That way we have a system in place and we will not be changing all of the result on all of the races at the end of the season like last year.
Mike
It seems that this rule has been removed from the rulebook. Not sure when this happened.
Lap counting: In the NW we run a lot of races each spring. We have a lot of cars show up (40+ not unusual). Historically we often had a lot of mistakes in the counting process, I can tell so horror stories about this. A couple years ago we got a lap counting system that uses transponders that register when the cars drive over a grid we tape down to the track. It has eliminated almost all of the counting errors. Almost. Even at its worst, it is far more accurate than the hand counts were. This is no consolation to someone whose laps are missed though.
Here is my suggestion for this season. Your input is appreciated and encouraged. Once we get started this is going to be the system we use for verifying outcome.
Proposal: Mark Watts and I will announce the unofficial results at the race. Trophies will be awarded for picture purposes and then recollected. If there are no challenges the trophies will be permanently passed out the next week.
If there is a challenge it MUST be made no later than the following Tuesday at noon. There is a $50 per car fee attached to filing a challenge. We will review the lap count tallies (we can see the exact lap times for each car/each lap) looking for errors. If the tallies are not conclusive we will then review the video tape. If we find an error we will correct the posted results. This will always happen before the following Saturday race. If the results are corrected, the fee will be returned. If the results stand, the fee is forfeited. The money will be added to the account that is used to purchase more transponders. Neither Mark nor I will profit from this.
We encourage you to count your own laps too. Not marks a a sheet of paper, those mean nothing. Record the time of each lap. Errors are very easy to spot with this system. The sheet on page 42 of the rulebook is a great example of how to do this. The Sheet on page 43 is a great example of how to miscount the tally.
Other input? Other ideas?
Aaron
-- Edited by Zaine Stapleton on Friday 25th of February 2011 05:39:42 AM
-- Edited by Zaine Stapleton on Friday 25th of February 2011 06:06:56 AM
Do you know where, when, who took the scoring challenge section out of the rule book? The oldest copy I can find here is the 07/08 book and it is not in it, so it must have been a long time ago. As best I can tell, EA no longer has a process for challenging race outcome. I only see the part about filing a protest for unfair advantage. It does state on page 33 that the camera is used in case a protest is filed, but the protest form states the only reason for protest is for another participant "violating EA design or event rules".
Aaron
There are a few set-ups out there, just make sure that it is designed for carts or motorcycles and not runners. The smaller systems will not be able to catch the cars at the speeds we drive.
As your groups get bigger it becomes more and more of a problem. I can count a 15 car race easily, after you get about 20 cars on the track it gets really tough. We have manually done over 50 on (on PIR) but that was tough. Even on the bigger tracks the cars tend to group, so many tend to pass at the same time.
Hard to believe this has never came up before. I would have sworn it was in there.
In the "video camera" section it states, "A video camera must be placed at the start/finish line and record entire competition. This tape will be used in the event of lap count protest".
Then there is no official way to protest.
Our first ace is on Saturday. Mark and I are hoping to have a consensus before then about this. So far I have the feeling it will be enforced as written unless we get other input.
Aaron