Jim I moved your concern to a separate thread that is a little different then the leg protection one.
Beltline... I would like to see the beltline increased. I am not talking about gaining weight here but increasing the overall height from the bottom of the frame to at least match the height of the thighs and knees or the stomach if lying flat. As a sometimes-inspector, I am deeply concerned about what I feel is an inadequate amount of side protection. Because the height of the frame is so low, another driver could literally drive up into the passenger compartment in a T-Bone situation. Also, the arms are able to lie on the asphalt in the resting position since there is no restriction here. I want to see a change to increase the beltline for safety. I see this program as a special event that will lead many students to continue their education or help them choose a career path. I would really hate to see it all end because of a wreck.
Mike
mhodgertt said
May 21, 2011
Jim and all,
The handbook and the inspection sheets all talk about the frame and the protection it must have "3.1 All vehicles must have frame members that protect the driver in the event of collisions form any direction. 3.2 Frames may be constructed of various materials ad styles providing the the material(s) or methods provide adequate structural strenght for protection/safety. The design will need to be structurally sound in the opinion of inspectors and/or race officials."
In the inspection sheet we use in the NW has a place for inspectors to check off that: "____ Bodywork or structural protection from head on and side impact & encloses all of the drivers body parts"
As an inspector I know it is hard to say a car can not race because it does not meet a necessary rule but I think that is needed. If we what maybe the inspectors can make a note that the driver can race this race but by the next one the side crash protection needs to be improved by doing ...........
Maybe we can improve the way the handbook rule is written so that it is easier for teams to understand what it meant before they design their cars. ANY SUGGESTIONS?
Mike
arcflash said
May 22, 2011
Maybe make a minimum amount of inches above the highest point of the legs, knees, or feet. Say maybe 3" minimum so that if another car was to end up on top of another one, the frame would rest on the bar instead of the driver.
And I also think that your arms should not be able to reach the ground if you are belted in as if you were racing.
Or if you can reach the ground an extra bar from the roll cage extending down the sides so that your arms can't go flying out.
-- Edited by arcflash on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 04:24:08 AM
Stevie G said
Jun 12, 2011
Has anyone looked at adding arm restraints that hook the drivers elbows to their waste so their arms cannot fly out of the car?
Is there an area for new members to post an introduction?
electrathon said
Jun 13, 2011
Stevie G wrote:
Has anyone looked at adding arm restraints that hook the drivers elbows to their waste so their arms cannot fly out of the car?
Is there an area for new members to post an introduction?
Stevie,
A few years back one of the other Electrathon groups had a rule asking for wrist restraints. I have never seen the need for them in all of the races I have been at over the years and have seen a lot of times when they likely would have complicated things.
There is no separate area to post introductions. Please post in the general category. Who you are and your involvement with races would be great to know!
Aaron
Zaine Stapleton said
Jun 14, 2011
Maybe we can improve the way the handbook rule is written so that it is easier for lteams to understand what it meant before they design their cars. ANY SUGGESTIONS?
Mike Hodgert
Here is an idea that could help new teams in getting an idea for the look of their frame... Include pictures of a couple cars (from the northwest, midwest, and east coast) where it says about frame construction/design of what some other car frames look like. That is what I would do if I was updating the rule book.
Zaine
TotallyLost said
Aug 18, 2012
mhodgertt wrote:As a sometimes-inspector, I am deeply concerned about what I feel is an inadequate amount of side protection. Because the height of the frame is so low, another driver could literally drive up into the passenger compartment in a T-Bone situation
Mike
In EA, a 500lb car/chassis/battery at 50mph has a kenetic energy of (with some strange units to simply Ke to M*(V^2) in lbs and mph) = 500*(50^2) = 500*2500 = 1,250,000. At record holder speeds at a large high speed raceway that is a LOT more energy 500*(80^2) = 500*6400 = 3,200,000. In a parking lot race, it's also a LOT less 500*(35^2) = 500*1225 = 612,500.
A safe car in a parking lot race only needs about 612,500/3,200,000 = 19.1% of the strength that would be needed racing on a track with other cars at record holder speeds. Or, the cars need crumple zones to spread the impact in time out over 5 times longer, to lower the effective impact forces.
In DOT rules for cars/trucks, impacts are designed for in the bumper zone, and need to be able to absorb/distribute the energy in a crash over a time period dictated by the bumper shocks and/or crumple zone length.
To make this work for EA you would need to specify a bumper zone that is above the typical center of gravity, a cumple zone length, and that the frame design would need a rail around the car to absorb/distribute that much energy in a specified time period without crushing the driver.
Firmly specifing these features, minimizes one car going over the top of (or under) another, and provides an engineering standard that will be known as safe with some modest math that most pre-engineering high school students can be capable of with some modest instruction.
It also messes with the aerodynamics of existing record holder cars, and creates an apples and oranges issue in records from past to the future.
8pitcher said
Nov 15, 2012
electrathon wrote:
Stevie G wrote:
Has anyone looked at adding arm restraints that hook the drivers elbows to their waste so their arms cannot fly out of the car?
Is there an area for new members to post an introduction?
Stevie,
A few years back one of the other Electrathon groups had a rule asking for wrist restraints. I have never seen the need for them in all of the races I have been at over the years and have seen a lot of times when they likely would have complicated things.
There is no separate area to post introductions. Please post in the general category. Who you are and your involvement with races would be great to know!
Aaron
I feel that wrist restraints would prohibit the ablity to control the car. something similar would be nice as last year when a kid flipped and rolled his car and he about stuck his hands out to catch him and the car(we have video of this) but wrist restraints would have probably have done a little more damage.
electrathon said
Nov 17, 2012
I have seenroll over accidents aided when the driver reached up and flipped the car upright. Tehy were able to quickly get out of the danger area and keepdriving. Wristrestraints likely would have allowed the next car to plow into the flipped car.
Mike,want to speek up?
Kyle Keenan said
Nov 17, 2012
Wrist restraints are not a wise idea. They were tried years ago in SCCA/ICSCC and proved to cause more incidents then they saved. What they have found now is arm restraints that loop around your upper arm and work much more effectively. Again, this is in real cars, but I do not see limiting the movements of your wrist as being a good idea.
Jim I moved your concern to a separate thread that is a little different then the leg protection one.
Beltline... I would like to see the beltline increased. I am not talking about gaining weight here but increasing the overall height from the bottom of the frame to at least match the height of the thighs and knees or the stomach if lying flat. As a sometimes-inspector, I am deeply concerned about what I feel is an inadequate amount of side protection. Because the height of the frame is so low, another driver could literally drive up into the passenger compartment in a T-Bone situation. Also, the arms are able to lie on the asphalt in the resting position since there is no restriction here. I want to see a change to increase the beltline for safety. I see this program as a special event that will lead many students to continue their education or help them choose a career path. I would really hate to see it all end because of a wreck.
Mike
The handbook and the inspection sheets all talk about the frame and the protection it must have
"3.1 All vehicles must have frame members that protect the driver in the event of collisions form any direction.
3.2 Frames may be constructed of various materials ad styles providing the the material(s) or methods provide adequate structural strenght for protection/safety. The design will need to be structurally sound in the opinion of inspectors and/or race officials."
In the inspection sheet we use in the NW has a place for inspectors to check off that:
"____ Bodywork or structural protection from head on and side impact & encloses all of the drivers body parts"
As an inspector I know it is hard to say a car can not race because it does not meet a necessary rule but I think that is needed. If we what maybe the inspectors can make a note that the driver can race this race but by the next one the side crash protection needs to be improved by doing ...........
Maybe we can improve the way the handbook rule is written so that it is easier for teams to understand what it meant before they design their cars. ANY SUGGESTIONS?
Mike
Maybe make a minimum amount of inches above the highest point of the legs, knees, or feet. Say maybe 3" minimum so that if another car was to end up on top of another one, the frame would rest on the bar instead of the driver.
And I also think that your arms should not be able to reach the ground if you are belted in as if you were racing.
Or if you can reach the ground an extra bar from the roll cage extending down the sides so that your arms can't go flying out.
-- Edited by arcflash on Sunday 22nd of May 2011 04:24:08 AM
Has anyone looked at adding arm restraints that hook the drivers elbows to their waste so their arms cannot fly out of the car?
Is there an area for new members to post an introduction?
Stevie,
A few years back one of the other Electrathon groups had a rule asking for wrist restraints. I have never seen the need for them in all of the races I have been at over the years and have seen a lot of times when they likely would have complicated things.
There is no separate area to post introductions. Please post in the general category. Who you are and your involvement with races would be great to know!
Aaron
In EA, a 500lb car/chassis/battery at 50mph has a kenetic energy of (with some strange units to simply Ke to M*(V^2) in lbs and mph) = 500*(50^2) = 500*2500 = 1,250,000. At record holder speeds at a large high speed raceway that is a LOT more energy 500*(80^2) = 500*6400 = 3,200,000. In a parking lot race, it's also a LOT less 500*(35^2) = 500*1225 = 612,500.
A safe car in a parking lot race only needs about 612,500/3,200,000 = 19.1% of the strength that would be needed racing on a track with other cars at record holder speeds. Or, the cars need crumple zones to spread the impact in time out over 5 times longer, to lower the effective impact forces.
In DOT rules for cars/trucks, impacts are designed for in the bumper zone, and need to be able to absorb/distribute the energy in a crash over a time period dictated by the bumper shocks and/or crumple zone length.
To make this work for EA you would need to specify a bumper zone that is above the typical center of gravity, a cumple zone length, and that the frame design would need a rail around the car to absorb/distribute that much energy in a specified time period without crushing the driver.
Firmly specifing these features, minimizes one car going over the top of (or under) another, and provides an engineering standard that will be known as safe with some modest math that most pre-engineering high school students can be capable of with some modest instruction.
It also messes with the aerodynamics of existing record holder cars, and creates an apples and oranges issue in records from past to the future.
I feel that wrist restraints would prohibit the ablity to control the car. something similar would be nice as last year when a kid flipped and rolled his car and he about stuck his hands out to catch him and the car(we have video of this) but wrist restraints would have probably have done a little more damage.
Mike,want to speek up?
Wrist restraints are not a wise idea. They were tried years ago in SCCA/ICSCC and proved to cause more incidents then they saved. What they have found now is arm restraints that loop around your upper arm and work much more effectively. Again, this is in real cars, but I do not see limiting the movements of your wrist as being a good idea.
Picture of the arm restraints I am talking about.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/aircooledracing/4601100059/
-- Edited by Kyle Keenan on Saturday 17th of November 2012 06:21:04 AM