New Class - Human Powered Vehicle with Electric Assist - HPV/E Class
TotallyLost said
Jan 6, 2012
The new solar class was ment to encorage students to explore a renewable energy class, with a highly "green" forward looking environmental goal. The usable surface area of a typical Electrathon Car, limit's usable solar power to around 100W, with maybe 150W as an upper limit - so maybe a good solar entry has an additional 10-15% of usable power over the 1KW battery limit.
Adding an HPV/E class. A typical cyclist provides about the same power range as can be achieved with the solar class option, so it's also adding 10-15% additional power over the 1KW battery limit.
The huge difference, is that an HPV/E Class would create a vehicle that the students could use for everyday transportation at home in most states in the USA and Europe, with a very minor tweek to the motor controller to cease electric assist at the locally mandated limit (which is typically between 20-30mph in the USA for most states). A bike/Trike with electric assist is broadly recognized as not a "motor vehicle" with specifically detailed limitations nearly world wide.
An entry with a good faring design, electric turn signals, head lights, and marker lights becomes a usable everyday velomobile design that the students can use nearly every day in many locations as alternaive transportation.
Creating an HPV/E Electrathon Class does directly create an objective that does start to change the world view of students, in a way that is legal to ride in most locals.
As an electric only design, as all current classes mandate, an Electrathon America entry can only be operated on the street when DOT licensed as a moped or motorcycle. An entry in the new HPV/E class would allow street legal use, with speed limited assist enabled, nearly world wide.
I would encourage the HPV/E class to also mandate solar, combined with NiMH or LiFePO4 batteries, so that the entire vehicle is "Green" with out the environmentally objectionable Lead.
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Friday 6th of January 2012 03:39:06 AM
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Friday 6th of January 2012 03:40:00 AM
bd64 said
Jan 7, 2012
I have not read through the rules in quit some time but I do not remeber the exclusion of petal assist. I even thought of using a second etek ( petal driven) to charge boost caps.
TotallyLost said
Jan 7, 2012
It appears that fuel cells, gas/diesel/propane/LNG ICE, springs, flywheels, solid/liquid rocket engines, energy beams, and other forms of stored or acquired energy are not expressly excluded either.
On the other hand, solar cells are expressly included as a separate class ... so it appears that other power sources which may assist or replace the batteries seem to require express approval.
I would also assume that having a track side or tethered ballon solar focusing array tracking a single car to increase the solar panel output is also probably outside the expectation of the rules, even though solar cells are allowed, but there isn't any wording expressly prohibiting solar intensifiers.
Anyway ... the original HPV/E suggestion is to specifically encourage broader participation in a way that can directly benefit the student participants on an every day basis, and provide additional motivation for constructing an entry that can be used more than a few days a year.
electrathon said
Jan 12, 2012
bd64 wrote:
I have not read through the rules in quit some time but I do not remeber the exclusion of petal assist. I even thought of using a second etek ( petal driven) to charge boost caps.
rule 14.1- vehicles must only be powered by electric motors.
electrathon said
Jan 12, 2012
I do not disagree with the concept of human powered electrics, but they are very differant than the cars we run. They are far closer to bicycles than they are to electrathons. Definatly are not safe to be running on the track at the same time as our current car designs. In many areas, we struggle to fill the field with cars. A good race has 30 cars, many races nationwide have less than 10. 50 plus is very rare. Adding more classes likely may fracture our already limited attendance. Putting on races that have almost no racers is costly and not fun. In the future, if this gets bigger, then more classes may be great, but at this time it will be hard to get support.
Aaron
bd64 said
Jan 12, 2012
So, in your opinion does the petal driven generator voilate rule 14.1 or any other rule?
TotallyLost said
Jan 12, 2012
electrathon wrote:
I do not disagree with the concept of human powered electrics, but they are very differant than the cars we run. They are far closer to bicycles than they are to electrathons. Definatly are not safe to be running on the track at the same time as our current car designs. In many areas, we struggle to fill the field with cars. A good race has 30 cars, many races nationwide have less than 10. 50 plus is very rare. Adding more classes likely may fracture our already limited attendance. Putting on races that have almost no racers is costly and not fun. In the future, if this gets bigger, then more classes may be great, but at this time it will be hard to get support.
Aaron
I'm confused why you believe that???
A legal electrathon car, with a pedal generator as described above, is just that, an Electrathon car. That is not in any way inferror, or not safe, nor should it change track dynamics any signficant degree as you assert.
I would suggest putting an HPV/EA car in the SAME class as solar, or even replace solar AND alternative battery class, with a combined class that includes entries that are any combination of Solar, Advanced battery, or HPV/EA. My personal belief is that ALL three technologies are required, and expected for an effective green transportation alternative to fosil fuel ICE cars.
As for suggesting this would some how reduce support for Electrathon America as it is today ... I hope you are completely right, and it starts the end of the lead poluting standard that this has been centered around. I strongly believe that a new HPV/EA class that includes/mandates solar and non-lead alternative battery technologies will actually allow Electrathon America to thrive by introducing a class that every student can see AND USE EVERY DAY in their lives. ... NOT just several race days a year.
TotallyLost said
Jan 12, 2012
electrathon wrote:
bd64 wrote:
I have not read through the rules in quit some time but I do not remeber the exclusion of petal assist. I even thought of using a second etek ( petal driven) to charge boost caps.
rule 14.1- vehicles must only be powered by electric motors.
In a serial hybrid HPB/EA design with a pedal generator, an electric motor remains the ONLY source of torque against the pavement.
All that changes is the source of the electric energy is different, ... IE SLA battery, alternative battery, solar ... AND human to electric energy.
As a side note ... serial hybrids can be significantly less efficient than a parallel hybrid solution ... and I would specifically like rule 14.1 changed/elminated to also allow a parallel hybrid.
bd64 said
Jan 12, 2012
I personally do not think a petal assist generator is safe. In this part of the country race days can be extremely warm and drivers lose enough fluids the way the it is. Also, I am a firm believer that both hand should used for steering and accelerator contol with the foot or feet left for braking. I would rather see 14.1 rule state that the batteries are the sole source of energy. Exceptions for solar class. This does not mean that I am against a serial hybrids.
TotallyLost said
Jan 13, 2012
bd64 wrote:
I personally do not think a petal assist generator is safe. In this part of the country race days can be extremely warm and drivers lose enough fluids the way the it is. Also, I am a firm believer that both hand should used for steering and accelerator contol with the foot or feet left for braking. I would rather see 14.1 rule state that the batteries are the sole source of energy. Exceptions for solar class. This does not mean that I am against a serial hybrids.
Everyone has controls preferences, which can be significantly different. Track safety is highly corrilated to drivers skills and experience with the vechicle dynamics and familiarity with controls. An HPV/EA vehicle that is the daily transportation for a driver, is MUCH more likely to develop those skills over time till they are near automatic, than a limited purpose vehicle where a driver might only have a few dozens of hours of familarity and has to struggle with reasoning the controls during a panic.
TotallyLost said
Jan 13, 2012
As for fluids, I've cycled most of my life ... I, and nearly all cyclists do make a point to carry our water/drinks with us at all times, either as bottles clipped to the frame, or as a hydration pack. Nothing precludes that here either.
There is no reason for an EA driver in a race to struggle with hydration either.
electrathon said
Jan 14, 2012
bd64 wrote:
So, in your opinion does the petal driven generator voilate rule 14.1 or any other rule?
I quoted the wrong rule: Rule 11.7 states, "Batteries cannot be exchanged or recharged from an outside source durring compitition..."
If you were charging caps and not the battery, but the battery was connected to the caps (even isolated by a disconect) I would interpit this as a violation. I am not the person that makes these rules, but I do enforce them at a lot of races.
Mike, are you here? What is your interpertation?
Aaron
mhodgertt said
Jan 15, 2012
Aaron is right. The way the rules are now---You can NOT use human power to charge the batteries during the race or to power your car in any way during the race. In the past we had some that wanted to add capacitors to give them a boost to pass or go up hills. We let them know that was OK but they must be totally discharged and the beginning of the race and must be charged up from the 73 pounds of standard 'non-leakable' lead acid batteries AFTER the race starts.
With that said our rules can always be changed. See page 4 of hand-book. If the rule is "Consistent with the spirit of of Electrathon America competition and will benefit the sport." Human assist would add a 3rd class of experimental vehicles along with solar assist and advanced batteries. Having watched HPV competition at Portland International Raceway I feel that an athletic person could add very dramatically to the distance traveled in an hour so they would be going much faster than the standard EA cars and add a safety hazard even if the driver was in total control of his own car. Passing on corners, catching up to cars faster than other drivers are used to etc. may make it more dangerous for other drivers. In our area of the country we have seen very few of any experimental cars (some solar cars from Kansas) and a couple of cars have experimental batteries but I think only Washington State's car has ever raced with any and it had other problems. So I don't know how big of issue it would be in the NW but in some places like Eugene we have a huge bike population with a number of human assist electric bike etc. on the roads so maybe more people would get involved.
This year was the one to have a new handbook but since no one on the board, including me has put in the hours to get the new rules writtten, voted on and then into the book, and the season is rapidly coming with the exception of one change that does not change car design I think we will continue with last years rules and then have a new 'hand-book' in place for the 2013-2014 race seasons. Adding human power could be a change if enough members want it. As described on page 4, the process to follow is that it must be presented to the board, we then will discuss it and present it to the general membership. There is then an open vote and if it is passed it becomes a rule. So if you feel strongly about this rule and want to go to the work to make it reality for the 2013 race season then work out the details present it to your local board member and any others. Help spread the work--we could open up a separate topic on the forum?-- and try to get it passed. I will let you know that don't have a burning passion to make this happen are not going to put in lots of time trying to get it into the rule books but could be convinced to vote for it if a good case was made.
TotallyLost said
Jan 15, 2012
mhodgertt wrote:
Having watched HPV competition at Portland International Raceway I feel that an athletic person could add very dramatically to the distance traveled in an hour so they would be going much faster than the standard EA cars and add a safety hazard even if the driver was in total control of his own car. Passing on corners, catching up to cars faster than other drivers are used to etc. may make it more dangerous for other drivers.
Right now, Electrathon America already has cars that have top speeds about two to three times the typical high school design. The standing records set by Michael Lewis, Cloud Electric Racing, and others clearly demonstrate that. When the speeds their cars achieved at The Bonneville Salt Flats are included, the range is wider. So, existing designs clearly have already presented those speed differences on track courses.
For a track course, the physics of power is equal to mass times velocity squared, an additional 10-15% power will not change average speeds nearly as significantly as the existing factor of 2-3. The mathmatical limits are clear, this might increase Mikes record by about 4mph -- sqrt((62^2) *1.15) = 66.6mpg for a 7.3% increase on a fast raceway course and car.
From what I've seen of the parking lot races, speeds are limited by the course, car design, and driving skills.
If the speed differences you cite are really a critical safety issue, then it seems it would be prudent to sort cars with qualification runs, and only allow cars to race each other that have similar speeds.
That clearly doesn't happen, and we still see racers handling it reasonably, and the race rules require drivers to be aware of faster/slower cars on the track.
Please correct me if there is a gross error in the math above.
TotallyLost said
Jan 15, 2012
mhodgertt wrote:
So I don't know how big of issue it would be in the NW but in some places like Eugene we have a huge bike population with a number of human assist electric bike etc. on the roads so maybe more people would get involved.
This is one reason why I believe that changing the rules to combine solar, alternative battery, and HPV/EA into a single new class has a significant chance of increasing Electrathon America participation.
When you combine that with the ability of high school students to build their own HPV/EA car, ride it every day, and compete in Electrathon America races it should be a significant win.
With greatly improved driver skills from riding daily, there should be a significant improvement in safety from higher driver skills, more road testing, and year round use.
Why is that not a huge win for Electrathon America?
TotallyLost said
Jan 15, 2012
mhodgertt wrote:
This year was the one to have a new handbook but since no one on the board, including me has put in the hours to get the new rules writtten, voted on and then into the book, and the season is rapidly coming with the exception of one change that does not change car design I think we will continue with last years rules and then have a new 'hand-book' in place for the 2013-2014 race seasons. Adding human power could be a change if enough members want it. As described on page 4, the process to follow is that it must be presented to the board, we then will discuss it and present it to the general membership. There is then an open vote and if it is passed it becomes a rule. So if you feel strongly about this rule and want to go to the work to make it reality for the 2013 race season then work out the details present it to your local board member and any others. Help spread the work--we could open up a separate topic on the forum?-- and try to get it passed. I will let you know that don't have a burning passion to make this happen are not going to put in lots of time trying to get it into the rule books but could be convinced to vote for it if a good case was made.
I have a burning passion to see this happen sooner.
I'm willing to volunteer for a board position, if it's the case that the organization is struggling with over committed or less than energetic board members.
My 2012 dues are already paid for two cars.
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
mhodgertt wrote:
As described on page 4, the process to follow is that it must be presented to the board, we then will discuss it and present it to the general membership. There is then an open vote and if it is passed it becomes a rule. So if you feel strongly about this rule and want to go to the work to make it reality for the 2013 race season then work out the details present it to your local board member and any others. Help spread the work--we could open up a separate topic on the forum?-- and try to get it passed.
Ok ... I see the process, although I'm surprised that a thread in the rules section of this forum isn't enough to initiate that process.
And by the rules, new topics in this 2012 section should have been closed back in November sometime, since that's about the latest it could be formalized and taken to the membership by year end.
So, can someone create the 2013 rules section, and move this discussion there?
What isn't there, is the board membership nomination and voting process. Are the bylaws online somewhere?
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Monday 16th of January 2012 05:42:31 AM
electrathon said
Jan 16, 2012
TotallyLost wrote:
I have a burning passion to see this happen sooner.
I'm willing to volunteer for a board position, if it's the case that the organization is struggling with over committed or less than energetic board members.
My 2012 dues are already paid for two cars.
It might be worth your while to contact the OHPV group. There is already a class for the kind of vehicle you are interested in. Insatead of trying to create more races within EA possibly you may want to talk to OHPV.
Aaron
electrathon said
Jan 16, 2012
I will try to get a rule change 2013 sectoin up tomorrow.
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
electrathon wrote:
It might be worth your while to contact the OHPV group. There is already a class for the kind of vehicle you are interested in. Insatead of trying to create more races within EA possibly you may want to talk to OHPV.
I'm not aware of any other US wide organization that sponsors events for active High School and college teams in this technology area ... EA, and the affiliates in regional areas, is about as close as one can get.
When I google OHPV I get an Oregon regional group.
I'm interested in a program that will engage high school and college level students. Is there a better forum than EA for that?
electrathon said
Jan 16, 2012
I made the assumptopn that you were in the NW area. Differant parts of the US do approach Electrathon differantly. On the west coast it is very much a stdent leval sport. Our cars show it. In the NE there are a lot more cars running that are more "profesional" like cars.
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
I'm based on Colorado, and Mentor for a local high school technology team that had been a First Robotics team, but lost the critical mass to maintain the $8-10K in sponsorships that it takes to keep a First Robotics team running each year. The team still does VEX, but needs something more challenging and interesting to keep it functioning.
EA looks like a much more interesting program for the kids, even with the travel to Kansas to compete ... at least until we can get a few more schools in the area to also participate.
I have professional interests in HPV/EA technology as well, with related products under the brand NuTrike that will go to market during 2012.
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
mhodgertt wrote:This year was the one to have a new handbook but since no one on the board, including me has put in the hours to get the new rules writtten, voted on and then into the book, and the season is rapidly coming with the exception of one change that does not change car design I think we will continue with last years rules and then have a new 'hand-book' in place for the 2013-2014 race seasons.
I'm currious why the rules change on Jan 1st if this program is primarily a high school racing event. It seems that it would be better to change rules in the middle of the summer, probably around July 1st instead.
That way high school teams would not have to scramble to replace a design mid school year, when rule changes might have a dramatic affect on their design choices.
Can somebody provide a clue?
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Monday 16th of January 2012 09:01:43 AM
mhodgertt said
Jan 16, 2012
The new rules take effect on Jan. 1st. We vote on an approve the rules in the spring and summer and have everything set in stone (we hope) by September. We then send out an email about the new rules and when you get your membership for the upcoming season in the fall you get a new handbook for the year your membership is for.
This year I was told that another board member was going to work on the rules and I was very busy and did not keep track on the lack of progress and come September nothing had been started. I spent some time on trying to get things done quick but with this being a national volunteer organization it took time to answer my emails and I was slow in processing everything and getting it back out. So it did not happen in time for this race season.
Mike
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
Thanks Mike for the clues. I completely understand. I just took a small regional internet cooperative that I founded in 1999, private after 12 years because of similar problems with consistant labor for a volunteer board and membership work committees. After 12 years a small core group of volunteers just gets tired, and newer things take over the time their lives.
I mentioned a professional interest, as well at mentoring. NuTrike will be producing a series low cost, high value, HPV/EA velomobiles that exceed Electrathon safety rules, with sales starting later this year. I hired two engineers Jan 2nd this year to complete designs for prototypes, designs for tooling, and ramp the production rollouts.
I have a strong interest in continuing the Electrathon America mission of keeping high school (and college) kids involved in this evolving market place. I just believe that there needs to be a technology upgrade and slight change in focus, so the program continues to inspire and is useful every day in these kids lives.
mhodgertt said
Jan 16, 2012
So along with your motives to help kids learn and teach them about green energy and give them a street legal vehicle you also want to promote your new vehicle and help get NuTrike off to a good start. We have had a number of people with 'start up' companies try to change the direction of EA so they can sell their products.
I don't know about most schools and kids but my school can not afford to give their students a working vehicle with all of the components when they graduate. We at Willamette build our cars a lot cheaper than many schools which is why we can build as many as 24 cars in a year. But with that said to have a kid leave with a vehicle would still cost me well over $1000. I very seldom sell a car to a student but they have to pay the school the cost of brand new wheels, motors, controllers, etc. and it comes to over $1000. Our school has nearly 75% of its students on free or reduced lunches because of poverty so most of our high school kids would rather spend that $1000+ toward their college, upgrades on their ICE car, or buy their first ICE car. True these cars are not green which I wish they were but most 16 to 18 year old high school students have no desire to travel around town in a vehicle limited to 20 miles and hour--especially in street traffic in a car that is 34" tall and built to be ultralight. Having driven a couple of very light street legal in the Eugene area they are very unsafe. In any accident you would be in big trouble. I am in the process of building my onw street legal but it will be much heavier and stronger and taller than many others---hopefully if/when I get hit I am safe.
Mike.
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
NuTrikes market is nearly separate and different from that of that Electrathon. There are enough recumbent bike shops in various cites, and other cycling direct sales outlets, to build a strong market presence, independent of Electrathon.
If you are deathly afraid of commercialization inside Electrathon, to inspire and benefit the kids, then that seems a bit strange given that page 26 in the Handbook is advertising for other established Electrathon competitors businesses. NuTrike may also make some of it's core components available Electrathon teams, probably at cost for high school teams, so they have access to advanced Battery management, Nav systems, and high efficiency drive systems with regen that actually work well.
I strongly believe in the kids designing and building their own car, and not using someone elses design and kit, except to bootstrap a newbie team.
Cost to build a safe recumbent trike HPV from scrap, and used bicycle parts, if a student is given access to a high school, parents, or mentors shop is minimal -- from nearly free, or completely free with a few donations, to maybe a few hundred dollars if it has electric assist. I would like to promote teaching kids to be resourceful with recycling like that.
The student just needs some hands on (preferably in class) training and mentoring to learn welding, machining, and fabrication skills. Nearly the same skills First Robotics teams need to compete effectively, but with a result that is usable to the students every day if they build their own ... IE several cars built per team instead of a single one.
First Robitics teams run on an annual budget from sponsors, of between $6k to as much as $30K per year. If we could develop a similar sponsor driven program, where the kids end up with their cars, I think we can make a huge difference in their lives.
I'm not sure why one would believe that isn't good for the kids.
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
The big cost is in the electric drive system (batteries, motor, and controller) ... structuring the program to promote sponsors to provide that to the individual kids, thru the school sponsored program is a win.
In any case, even without sponsors, the kids should be able to find enough free, or nearly free, scrap and parts to build an HPV without electric assist that they can keep when they exist the program. If the school owns and keeps the electric drive system, then the kids still leave with their car.
It would be better if we can build a program where sponsors provide about $500 per kid, so they can build their own HPV/EA and keep it after they leave the high school program. Hopefully heading off to college with an HPV/EA that is cheaper to operate than an ICE car.
If First Robotics teams can raise the $6k minimum, each year, then it seems to me that we can also reach into the community with some guidance, and do better on a much smaller budget.
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Monday 16th of January 2012 06:38:04 PM
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
Google easily provides the resources for kids to build recycled recumbents, which when augmented with high build standards for Electrathon America, should provide a much more street safe HPV for the kids.
Every kid almost always knows where there are free bikes to be had for parts ... including Craigs List. Mentors just need to provide some logistics, and training for fabrication skills.
First Robotic's teams have created a wealth of fund raising and sponsorship ideas to support those relatively expensive team costs. There isn't any reason that Electrathon Teams can not directly use these funding strategies too. Just Google "First robotics fundraising ideas" and set a few students and parent mentors loose in the same way:
The small amount of money to enable a high school Electrathon Team, without digging into the schools public funds, should be obtainable ... and much of the funds, will occur each year after the first.
Just be clear about how the funds will be used, and be sure to provide clear visibility of your sponsors every where you can ... on the car, on the teams web site, and in news letters to the community about the teams efforts.
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
mhodgertt wrote:
True these cars are not green which I wish they were but most 16 to 18 year old high school students have no desire to travel around town in a vehicle limited to 20 miles and hour--especially in street traffic in a car that is 34" tall and built to be ultralight.
The law only limits the speed while running on electric assist. It does not limit the speed when operated strictly as an HPV. A velomobile with a clean aerodynmic faring, can easily do 35-45mph in flat areas, and operate at city street speeds in the bicycle lane, with nearly the same commute time as by car.
Electric assist provides the energy to help get away from stops, and helps significantly with small hills. And when temps get above 80 ... can provide 50% or better of the commute energy as long as speeds stay at, or below, the legal limit.
They do not do 55-75 on the freeway or expressway ... but few kids, and most city adults, do not need that every day to commute to/from school/work. Most commutes are at 35-45mph, for 5-10 miles on city streets. Most kids attend a school within 5 miles of home, with the entire commute on city streets.
If built with a space frame at bumper height, it's much less likely to end up under something, like a bicycle will. Done well, it will recoil off, and end up in a ditch or yard, with the rider safely clipped inside with the roll cage intact and 5 point harness keeping them inside.
If the space frame and skin are back filled with medium density PE foam, the entire structure is significantly stronger and able to take a hit without a lot of deformation ... a couple pounds of foam resin to distribute the impact into the skin and space frame, greatly adds to strength with minimum weight.
Normal bicycles do not fair nearly as well when clipped.
Interestingly enough, small cars that are under 2,000lbs are not that much safer either, and in many ways less safe at higher speeds.
TotallyLost said
Jan 16, 2012
is a .doc file available for the bylaws and handbook?
electrathon said
Jan 16, 2012
The handbook is available online at electrathonamerica.org
meangreen said
May 15, 2012
There used to be an organization called Solar Bike Rayce (sic) that had a couple of human powered classes with solar/electric assisted power. I haven't heard anything about them in a few years.
TotallyLost said
Jul 2, 2012
Clay wrote:
Look, I'm on the other side of world (Australia) and I can see Mike's point. It does seem a bit odd to be pushing a line of development that is quite off track compared to where Electrathon with 30+ years of history has come from, only to find out that this very same line of development is where you are trying to set up a profitable business. There may be no hidden agenda but it looks like there is.
I cannot see the point of adding HPV to Electrathon. Solar seems to make sense, but the whole idea of (for the majority of competitors) designing and building your own car will go out the window if someone can buy a velomobile or recumbent trike, bolt on an Etek and 24V system and go faster than most homebuilt racers.
For what it is worth, which is not much given where I am down under, I would argue against HPV Electrathons.
Your three points have been addressed above.
First, there are already a long list of electrathon folks with profitable businesses in this area, that are already advertising in the handbook. The only hidden agenda, is probably keeping the competition out. Others on the resource page are already selling HPV products, and electrathon kits ... so I find it something of an insult to assert that I'm in some way violating the Electrathon spirt, by both supporting students to design and build their own cars, while I also have a business with similar interests.
Second, I was clear previously that I strongly believe students should be building their own cars. From the established electrathon folks advertising in the handbook, it's clear that some would prefer to sell fully designed kit's, like the Blue Sky Aerocoupe electrathon kit. So again I find it an insult, that you assert I'm interested in selling students a electrathon car that is magically faster ... when the math clearly stated above says that a few percent more energy input of an HPV is nearly insignificant for improving top speeds possible.
Third, the HPV value for electrathon is to benefit students, so that the fruits of their labor can be used everyday on the streets for transportation under US and Euro HPV laws. This should greatly improve student interest, significantly improve driver skills, and track safety with extensive driving practice that seldom exists today.
Last, the Lead Acid battery techology truely is 30 years old, and should be obsolete ... and outright banded with all the furour that RoHS Lead and other toxic intiatives promote. There is absolutely nothing moving forward about clinging to the outdated Toxic Lead batteries that is good for the planet, or the students .... except a dirty toxic wasteful legacy of that is how it's always been done.
It's not a question of "IF" Lead Acid batteries should be removed from Electrathon Amercia, but very very much WHEN. Safe alternative battery techology like LiFePO4 are actually cheaper long term, perform significantly better, and are safe and non-toxic. If Electrathon was being established today, the argument would be against using heavy toxic poluting batteries ... and in favor of smaller, lighter, LiFePO4's, solar, and HPV.
Remaining stuck with a heavy toxic 30 year old legacy benefits who?
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Monday 2nd of July 2012 01:01:56 AM
Clay said
Jul 2, 2012
Look, I'm on the other side of world (Australia) and I can see Mike's point. It does seem a bit odd to be pushing a line of development that is quite off track compared to where Electrathon with 30+ years of history has come from, only to find out that this very same line of development is where you are trying to set up a profitable business. There may be no hidden agenda but it looks like there is.
I cannot see the point of adding HPV to Electrathon. Solar seems to make sense, but the whole idea of (for the majority of competitors) designing and building your own car will go out the window if someone can buy a velomobile or recumbent trike, bolt on an Etek and 24V system and go faster than most homebuilt racers.
For what it is worth, which is not much given where I am down under, I would argue against HPV Electrathons.
Zaine Stapleton said
Nov 15, 2012
Yes, LiFePO4 does have a potential as a good alternative to Lead-Acid batteries indeed. But the main reason why most electrathon cars run on Lead-Acid batteries is because of the cost and expense put in for LiFePO4.
Yes, they are lighter. Yes, they are five times more efficient. Yes, they are just as safe as Lead-Acid batteries we use currently (Optima, Exide, SLA, any sealed type that does not leak). But all batteries can be damaged if not properly treated (or majorly messed up, I know everyone as at least messed up once with their batteries. Most common is not getting them back on the charger after a race and they sulfate. Or worse, dropping one and cracking the case, melting the case, etc.) Not everyone has the money to get LiFePO4 batteries. Plus on top of that, you would need special chargers for the batteries as well. And that can be a big basket case to deal with. Plus Lead-Acid is a good starting point to work from. Then after say a couple years of racing and you wanted to venture out and try new options (I know I certinaly have with modifying stuff on my car/messing around with SLA brick batteries) then for sure go ahead and do so.
Problem is that if someone had a car in your area (where ever that might be at) that showed up with LiFePO4 batteries or one of the other experimental types in it, it would be in it's own seperate class. Or the race officials might not have the trophy for it at the end of the day because no one was expecting an experiemental class car to show up. Just something to keep in mind.
If LiFePO4 was cheaper, say down to the price similar to what Lead-Acid batteries go for now a days, then I'm sure people would be certinaly interested in getting them (along with the chargers and all the other little bits required.) I know I'm in no position to get LiFePO4 batteries since I'm in college right now.
The new solar class was ment to encorage students to explore a renewable energy class, with a highly "green" forward looking environmental goal. The usable surface area of a typical Electrathon Car, limit's usable solar power to around 100W, with maybe 150W as an upper limit - so maybe a good solar entry has an additional 10-15% of usable power over the 1KW battery limit.
Adding an HPV/E class. A typical cyclist provides about the same power range as can be achieved with the solar class option, so it's also adding 10-15% additional power over the 1KW battery limit.
The huge difference, is that an HPV/E Class would create a vehicle that the students could use for everyday transportation at home in most states in the USA and Europe, with a very minor tweek to the motor controller to cease electric assist at the locally mandated limit (which is typically between 20-30mph in the USA for most states). A bike/Trike with electric assist is broadly recognized as not a "motor vehicle" with specifically detailed limitations nearly world wide.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electric_bicycle_laws
An entry with a good faring design, electric turn signals, head lights, and marker lights becomes a usable everyday velomobile design that the students can use nearly every day in many locations as alternaive transportation.
Creating an HPV/E Electrathon Class does directly create an objective that does start to change the world view of students, in a way that is legal to ride in most locals.
As an electric only design, as all current classes mandate, an Electrathon America entry can only be operated on the street when DOT licensed as a moped or motorcycle. An entry in the new HPV/E class would allow street legal use, with speed limited assist enabled, nearly world wide.
I would encourage the HPV/E class to also mandate solar, combined with NiMH or LiFePO4 batteries, so that the entire vehicle is "Green" with out the environmentally objectionable Lead.
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Friday 6th of January 2012 03:39:06 AM
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Friday 6th of January 2012 03:40:00 AM
I have not read through the rules in quit some time but I do not remeber the exclusion of petal assist. I even thought of using a second etek ( petal driven) to charge boost caps.
On the other hand, solar cells are expressly included as a separate class ... so it appears that other power sources which may assist or replace the batteries seem to require express approval.
I would also assume that having a track side or tethered ballon solar focusing array tracking a single car to increase the solar panel output is also probably outside the expectation of the rules, even though solar cells are allowed, but there isn't any wording expressly prohibiting solar intensifiers.
Anyway ... the original HPV/E suggestion is to specifically encourage broader participation in a way that can directly benefit the student participants on an every day basis, and provide additional motivation for constructing an entry that can be used more than a few days a year.
rule 14.1- vehicles must only be powered by electric motors.
Aaron
I'm confused why you believe that???
A legal electrathon car, with a pedal generator as described above, is just that, an Electrathon car. That is not in any way inferror, or not safe, nor should it change track dynamics any signficant degree as you assert.
I would suggest putting an HPV/EA car in the SAME class as solar, or even replace solar AND alternative battery class, with a combined class that includes entries that are any combination of Solar, Advanced battery, or HPV/EA. My personal belief is that ALL three technologies are required, and expected for an effective green transportation alternative to fosil fuel ICE cars.
As for suggesting this would some how reduce support for Electrathon America as it is today ... I hope you are completely right, and it starts the end of the lead poluting standard that this has been centered around. I strongly believe that a new HPV/EA class that includes/mandates solar and non-lead alternative battery technologies will actually allow Electrathon America to thrive by introducing a class that every student can see AND USE EVERY DAY in their lives. ... NOT just several race days a year.
In a serial hybrid HPB/EA design with a pedal generator, an electric motor remains the ONLY source of torque against the pavement.
All that changes is the source of the electric energy is different, ... IE SLA battery, alternative battery, solar ... AND human to electric energy.
As a side note ... serial hybrids can be significantly less efficient than a parallel hybrid solution ... and I would specifically like rule 14.1 changed/elminated to also allow a parallel hybrid.
Everyone has controls preferences, which can be significantly different. Track safety is highly corrilated to drivers skills and experience with the vechicle dynamics and familiarity with controls. An HPV/EA vehicle that is the daily transportation for a driver, is MUCH more likely to develop those skills over time till they are near automatic, than a limited purpose vehicle where a driver might only have a few dozens of hours of familarity and has to struggle with reasoning the controls during a panic.
As for fluids, I've cycled most of my life ... I, and nearly all cyclists do make a point to carry our water/drinks with us at all times, either as bottles clipped to the frame, or as a hydration pack. Nothing precludes that here either.
http://www.rei.com/expertadvice/articles/hydration+system.html
There is no reason for an EA driver in a race to struggle with hydration either.
I quoted the wrong rule: Rule 11.7 states, "Batteries cannot be exchanged or recharged from an outside source durring compitition..."
If you were charging caps and not the battery, but the battery was connected to the caps (even isolated by a disconect) I would interpit this as a violation. I am not the person that makes these rules, but I do enforce them at a lot of races.
Mike, are you here? What is your interpertation?
Aaron
With that said our rules can always be changed. See page 4 of hand-book. If the rule is "Consistent with the spirit of of Electrathon America competition and will benefit the sport." Human assist would add a 3rd class of experimental vehicles along with solar assist and advanced batteries. Having watched HPV competition at Portland International Raceway I feel that an athletic person could add very dramatically to the distance traveled in an hour so they would be going much faster than the standard EA cars and add a safety hazard even if the driver was in total control of his own car. Passing on corners, catching up to cars faster than other drivers are used to etc. may make it more dangerous for other drivers. In our area of the country we have seen very few of any experimental cars (some solar cars from Kansas) and a couple of cars have experimental batteries but I think only Washington State's car has ever raced with any and it had other problems. So I don't know how big of issue it would be in the NW but in some places like Eugene we have a huge bike population with a number of human assist electric bike etc. on the roads so maybe more people would get involved.
This year was the one to have a new handbook but since no one on the board, including me has put in the hours to get the new rules writtten, voted on and then into the book, and the season is rapidly coming with the exception of one change that does not change car design I think we will continue with last years rules and then have a new 'hand-book' in place for the 2013-2014 race seasons. Adding human power could be a change if enough members want it. As described on page 4, the process to follow is that it must be presented to the board, we then will discuss it and present it to the general membership. There is then an open vote and if it is passed it becomes a rule. So if you feel strongly about this rule and want to go to the work to make it reality for the 2013 race season then work out the details present it to your local board member and any others. Help spread the work--we could open up a separate topic on the forum?-- and try to get it passed. I will let you know that don't have a burning passion to make this happen are not going to put in lots of time trying to get it into the rule books but could be convinced to vote for it if a good case was made.
Right now, Electrathon America already has cars that have top speeds about two to three times the typical high school design. The standing records set by Michael Lewis, Cloud Electric Racing, and others clearly demonstrate that. When the speeds their cars achieved at The Bonneville Salt Flats are included, the range is wider. So, existing designs clearly have already presented those speed differences on track courses.
For a track course, the physics of power is equal to mass times velocity squared, an additional 10-15% power will not change average speeds nearly as significantly as the existing factor of 2-3. The mathmatical limits are clear, this might increase Mikes record by about 4mph -- sqrt((62^2) *1.15) = 66.6mpg for a 7.3% increase on a fast raceway course and car.
From what I've seen of the parking lot races, speeds are limited by the course, car design, and driving skills.
If the speed differences you cite are really a critical safety issue, then it seems it would be prudent to sort cars with qualification runs, and only allow cars to race each other that have similar speeds.
That clearly doesn't happen, and we still see racers handling it reasonably, and the race rules require drivers to be aware of faster/slower cars on the track.
Please correct me if there is a gross error in the math above.
This is one reason why I believe that changing the rules to combine solar, alternative battery, and HPV/EA into a single new class has a significant chance of increasing Electrathon America participation.
When you combine that with the ability of high school students to build their own HPV/EA car, ride it every day, and compete in Electrathon America races it should be a significant win.
With greatly improved driver skills from riding daily, there should be a significant improvement in safety from higher driver skills, more road testing, and year round use.
Why is that not a huge win for Electrathon America?
I have a burning passion to see this happen sooner.
I'm willing to volunteer for a board position, if it's the case that the organization is struggling with over committed or less than energetic board members.
My 2012 dues are already paid for two cars.
Ok ... I see the process, although I'm surprised that a thread in the rules section of this forum isn't enough to initiate that process.
And by the rules, new topics in this 2012 section should have been closed back in November sometime, since that's about the latest it could be formalized and taken to the membership by year end.
So, can someone create the 2013 rules section, and move this discussion there?
What isn't there, is the board membership nomination and voting process. Are the bylaws online somewhere?
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Monday 16th of January 2012 05:42:31 AM
It might be worth your while to contact the OHPV group. There is already a class for the kind of vehicle you are interested in. Insatead of trying to create more races within EA possibly you may want to talk to OHPV.
Aaron
I'm not aware of any other US wide organization that sponsors events for active High School and college teams in this technology area ... EA, and the affiliates in regional areas, is about as close as one can get.
When I google OHPV I get an Oregon regional group.
I'm interested in a program that will engage high school and college level students. Is there a better forum than EA for that?
I'm based on Colorado, and Mentor for a local high school technology team that had been a First Robotics team, but lost the critical mass to maintain the $8-10K in sponsorships that it takes to keep a First Robotics team running each year. The team still does VEX, but needs something more challenging and interesting to keep it functioning.
EA looks like a much more interesting program for the kids, even with the travel to Kansas to compete ... at least until we can get a few more schools in the area to also participate.
I have professional interests in HPV/EA technology as well, with related products under the brand NuTrike that will go to market during 2012.
I'm currious why the rules change on Jan 1st if this program is primarily a high school racing event. It seems that it would be better to change rules in the middle of the summer, probably around July 1st instead.
That way high school teams would not have to scramble to replace a design mid school year, when rule changes might have a dramatic affect on their design choices.
Can somebody provide a clue?
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Monday 16th of January 2012 09:01:43 AM
This year I was told that another board member was going to work on the rules and I was very busy and did not keep track on the lack of progress and come September nothing had been started. I spent some time on trying to get things done quick but with this being a national volunteer organization it took time to answer my emails and I was slow in processing everything and getting it back out. So it did not happen in time for this race season.
Mike
Thanks Mike for the clues. I completely understand. I just took a small regional internet cooperative that I founded in 1999, private after 12 years because of similar problems with consistant labor for a volunteer board and membership work committees. After 12 years a small core group of volunteers just gets tired, and newer things take over the time their lives.
I mentioned a professional interest, as well at mentoring. NuTrike will be producing a series low cost, high value, HPV/EA velomobiles that exceed Electrathon safety rules, with sales starting later this year. I hired two engineers Jan 2nd this year to complete designs for prototypes, designs for tooling, and ramp the production rollouts.
I have a strong interest in continuing the Electrathon America mission of keeping high school (and college) kids involved in this evolving market place. I just believe that there needs to be a technology upgrade and slight change in focus, so the program continues to inspire and is useful every day in these kids lives.
I don't know about most schools and kids but my school can not afford to give their students a working vehicle with all of the components when they graduate. We at Willamette build our cars a lot cheaper than many schools which is why we can build as many as 24 cars in a year. But with that said to have a kid leave with a vehicle would still cost me well over $1000. I very seldom sell a car to a student but they have to pay the school the cost of brand new wheels, motors, controllers, etc. and it comes to over $1000. Our school has nearly 75% of its students on free or reduced lunches because of poverty so most of our high school kids would rather spend that $1000+ toward their college, upgrades on their ICE car, or buy their first ICE car. True these cars are not green which I wish they were but most 16 to 18 year old high school students have no desire to travel around town in a vehicle limited to 20 miles and hour--especially in street traffic in a car that is 34" tall and built to be ultralight. Having driven a couple of very light street legal in the Eugene area they are very unsafe. In any accident you would be in big trouble. I am in the process of building my onw street legal but it will be much heavier and stronger and taller than many others---hopefully if/when I get hit I am safe.
Mike.
NuTrikes market is nearly separate and different from that of that Electrathon. There are enough recumbent bike shops in various cites, and other cycling direct sales outlets, to build a strong market presence, independent of Electrathon.
If you are deathly afraid of commercialization inside Electrathon, to inspire and benefit the kids, then that seems a bit strange given that page 26 in the Handbook is advertising for other established Electrathon competitors businesses. NuTrike may also make some of it's core components available Electrathon teams, probably at cost for high school teams, so they have access to advanced Battery management, Nav systems, and high efficiency drive systems with regen that actually work well.
I strongly believe in the kids designing and building their own car, and not using someone elses design and kit, except to bootstrap a newbie team.
Cost to build a safe recumbent trike HPV from scrap, and used bicycle parts, if a student is given access to a high school, parents, or mentors shop is minimal -- from nearly free, or completely free with a few donations, to maybe a few hundred dollars if it has electric assist. I would like to promote teaching kids to be resourceful with recycling like that.
The student just needs some hands on (preferably in class) training and mentoring to learn welding, machining, and fabrication skills. Nearly the same skills First Robotics teams need to compete effectively, but with a result that is usable to the students every day if they build their own ... IE several cars built per team instead of a single one.
First Robitics teams run on an annual budget from sponsors, of between $6k to as much as $30K per year. If we could develop a similar sponsor driven program, where the kids end up with their cars, I think we can make a huge difference in their lives.
I'm not sure why one would believe that isn't good for the kids.
The big cost is in the electric drive system (batteries, motor, and controller) ... structuring the program to promote sponsors to provide that to the individual kids, thru the school sponsored program is a win.
In any case, even without sponsors, the kids should be able to find enough free, or nearly free, scrap and parts to build an HPV without electric assist that they can keep when they exist the program. If the school owns and keeps the electric drive system, then the kids still leave with their car.
It would be better if we can build a program where sponsors provide about $500 per kid, so they can build their own HPV/EA and keep it after they leave the high school program. Hopefully heading off to college with an HPV/EA that is cheaper to operate than an ICE car.
If First Robotics teams can raise the $6k minimum, each year, then it seems to me that we can also reach into the community with some guidance, and do better on a much smaller budget.
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Monday 16th of January 2012 06:38:04 PM
Google easily provides the resources for kids to build recycled recumbents, which when augmented with high build standards for Electrathon America, should provide a much more street safe HPV for the kids.
http://atomic-zombie-extreme-machines.blogspot.com/
http://sites.google.com/site/recycledrecumbents/home
http://www.bentrideronline.com/
http://www.gigatrike.com/
http://www.manytracks.com/Recumbent/RecumbentShare.htm
Every kid almost always knows where there are free bikes to be had for parts ... including Craigs List. Mentors just need to provide some logistics, and training for fabrication skills.
First Robotic's teams have created a wealth of fund raising and sponsorship ideas to support those relatively expensive team costs. There isn't any reason that Electrathon Teams can not directly use these funding strategies too. Just Google "First robotics fundraising ideas" and set a few students and parent mentors loose in the same way:
http://www.usfirst.org/roboticsprograms/frc/where-to-find-financial-support-for-new-first-teams
http://team358.org/files/fundraising/
The small amount of money to enable a high school Electrathon Team, without digging into the schools public funds, should be obtainable ... and much of the funds, will occur each year after the first.
Just be clear about how the funds will be used, and be sure to provide clear visibility of your sponsors every where you can ... on the car, on the teams web site, and in news letters to the community about the teams efforts.
The law only limits the speed while running on electric assist. It does not limit the speed when operated strictly as an HPV. A velomobile with a clean aerodynmic faring, can easily do 35-45mph in flat areas, and operate at city street speeds in the bicycle lane, with nearly the same commute time as by car.
Electric assist provides the energy to help get away from stops, and helps significantly with small hills. And when temps get above 80 ... can provide 50% or better of the commute energy as long as speeds stay at, or below, the legal limit.
They do not do 55-75 on the freeway or expressway ... but few kids, and most city adults, do not need that every day to commute to/from school/work. Most commutes are at 35-45mph, for 5-10 miles on city streets. Most kids attend a school within 5 miles of home, with the entire commute on city streets.
If built with a space frame at bumper height, it's much less likely to end up under something, like a bicycle will. Done well, it will recoil off, and end up in a ditch or yard, with the rider safely clipped inside with the roll cage intact and 5 point harness keeping them inside.
If the space frame and skin are back filled with medium density PE foam, the entire structure is significantly stronger and able to take a hit without a lot of deformation ... a couple pounds of foam resin to distribute the impact into the skin and space frame, greatly adds to strength with minimum weight.
Normal bicycles do not fair nearly as well when clipped.
Interestingly enough, small cars that are under 2,000lbs are not that much safer either, and in many ways less safe at higher speeds.
Your three points have been addressed above.
First, there are already a long list of electrathon folks with profitable businesses in this area, that are already advertising in the handbook. The only hidden agenda, is probably keeping the competition out. Others on the resource page are already selling HPV products, and electrathon kits ... so I find it something of an insult to assert that I'm in some way violating the Electrathon spirt, by both supporting students to design and build their own cars, while I also have a business with similar interests.
Second, I was clear previously that I strongly believe students should be building their own cars. From the established electrathon folks advertising in the handbook, it's clear that some would prefer to sell fully designed kit's, like the Blue Sky Aerocoupe electrathon kit. So again I find it an insult, that you assert I'm interested in selling students a electrathon car that is magically faster ... when the math clearly stated above says that a few percent more energy input of an HPV is nearly insignificant for improving top speeds possible.
Third, the HPV value for electrathon is to benefit students, so that the fruits of their labor can be used everyday on the streets for transportation under US and Euro HPV laws. This should greatly improve student interest, significantly improve driver skills, and track safety with extensive driving practice that seldom exists today.
Last, the Lead Acid battery techology truely is 30 years old, and should be obsolete ... and outright banded with all the furour that RoHS Lead and other toxic intiatives promote. There is absolutely nothing moving forward about clinging to the outdated Toxic Lead batteries that is good for the planet, or the students .... except a dirty toxic wasteful legacy of that is how it's always been done.
It's not a question of "IF" Lead Acid batteries should be removed from Electrathon Amercia, but very very much WHEN. Safe alternative battery techology like LiFePO4 are actually cheaper long term, perform significantly better, and are safe and non-toxic. If Electrathon was being established today, the argument would be against using heavy toxic poluting batteries ... and in favor of smaller, lighter, LiFePO4's, solar, and HPV.
Remaining stuck with a heavy toxic 30 year old legacy benefits who?
-- Edited by TotallyLost on Monday 2nd of July 2012 01:01:56 AM
I cannot see the point of adding HPV to Electrathon. Solar seems to make sense, but the whole idea of (for the majority of competitors) designing and building your own car will go out the window if someone can buy a velomobile or recumbent trike, bolt on an Etek and 24V system and go faster than most homebuilt racers.
For what it is worth, which is not much given where I am down under, I would argue against HPV Electrathons.
Yes, LiFePO4 does have a potential as a good alternative to Lead-Acid batteries indeed. But the main reason why most electrathon cars run on Lead-Acid batteries is because of the cost and expense put in for LiFePO4.
Yes, they are lighter. Yes, they are five times more efficient. Yes, they are just as safe as Lead-Acid batteries we use currently (Optima, Exide, SLA, any sealed type that does not leak). But all batteries can be damaged if not properly treated (or majorly messed up, I know everyone as at least messed up once with their batteries. Most common is not getting them back on the charger after a race and they sulfate. Or worse, dropping one and cracking the case, melting the case, etc.) Not everyone has the money to get LiFePO4 batteries. Plus on top of that, you would need special chargers for the batteries as well. And that can be a big basket case to deal with. Plus Lead-Acid is a good starting point to work from. Then after say a couple years of racing and you wanted to venture out and try new options (I know I certinaly have with modifying stuff on my car/messing around with SLA brick batteries) then for sure go ahead and do so.
Problem is that if someone had a car in your area (where ever that might be at) that showed up with LiFePO4 batteries or one of the other experimental types in it, it would be in it's own seperate class. Or the race officials might not have the trophy for it at the end of the day because no one was expecting an experiemental class car to show up. Just something to keep in mind.
If LiFePO4 was cheaper, say down to the price similar to what Lead-Acid batteries go for now a days, then I'm sure people would be certinaly interested in getting them (along with the chargers and all the other little bits required.) I know I'm in no position to get LiFePO4 batteries since I'm in college right now.
Zaine