1.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Page 39. Add the NW inspection sheet to the handbook and eliminate the one in there.Add a place (big letters) for the battery class they are in to the NW inspection sheet as well.
-see attachment which is the NW inspection sheet
2.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Enforce number visibility more and offer purchasing option for numbers. We can offer three 6 high black numbers on a white block background for $5.00 each letters can be purchased at $2.00 each (these are a bit more, but letters are not sanctioned except for state designation when racing outside of your region which rarely occurs)
-This has been a complaint over the years by timers, flaggers, etc. By offering members the option of purchasing the basic numbers already specified in our rule book (Rule 16: Have uniform easy to see numbers that are standard.) we hope to avoid future problems and enable inspectors to enforce more rigorously on this issue. This is a cheap alternative option not a requirement to buy or a template that needs to be replicated exactly. All cars just need 6 easily readable numbers on a contrasting background.
3.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Do away with college class and join universities to adult/open class. Only student (HS) and open classes with corresponding battery divisions so four less classes to maintain at races. Rule listing on Page 12.
-When the club began the university students were no more prepared for building and racing cars than high school students. With the growing interest in electronic vehicles coupled with many graduating seniors having participated during high school this is no longer the case. To ensure high school students especially those just beginning in this field not to be at a disadvantage when racing we want to change having college students listed with high school students. Also to cut down on the number of classes being run without reducing battery classes we want to join them with adults in open class so race days arent as long. The battery classes are: standard batteries, solar panels standard batteries, experimental batteries, solar with experimental batteries
4.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Adding a communication ruling as too many kids are on the phone including texting while driving in a race. Some options for consideration under this ruling are: (1) Push to talk radios are permitted as long as the driver is not distracted by the action of PTT. (2) Cell phones are permitted only when vehicle is at a stop (such as a breakdown) or when in hands free mode on an open line (no dialing). (3) Texting is banned whenever the driver is physically in the car. (4) Penalty for violation of the above rule is the offending car and drivers immediate removal (disqualification). After 2 violations in same calendar year the driver will be banned from using any electronic form of communication for the rest of the year.
5.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Eliminate rule 10.3 and add ground clearance ruling: The minimum ground clearance is to be judged by the cars ability to roll over a 2x2 board that is milled to be 1 ½ x 1 ½.
-There were reported problems and delays at races where cars took out timing wires at finish lines. There is also a safety consideration as some car designs experienced loss of steering or braking when nose cone was down. This will also provide inspectors and builders with a more uniform tangible device to ensure compliance.
6.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Drop rule 15.4 about the closed loop/open loop so there is not any confusion on rules 15.2 and 15.3 and driver being in control. Closed loop means the pit area could be in control of the power of the car.
-Need to ensure closed loop devices are used for monitoring purposes only not for operation during the race. It is okay to use during practice or in the pits.
7.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): There needs to be wording added to the lap counting section (page 35) allowing/encouraging the use of an electronic counting system.
-It may be easy/simple to hand count a race with only a hand full of cars, but it is a near impossibility to count a 50-car race on a half-mile track with any form of hand count. One system actually broke a tie between two cars in two separate heats that had less than one second between them. This would have been a total impossibility with any form of hand count. Add into that the horrendous errors reported from hand counts and it seems silly that electronic counting is not even recognized, let alone encouraged.
-One proposal is that the club could match in kind on timing systems for each region. This would require a regional housekeeper of the equipment that would be responsible for bringing the equipment to every race in the region. If the race is more than 2 hours away then equipment would need to be there 24 hours prior to race. Running the equipment during the race would also be part of housekeeper duties. If housekeeper is unable to attend then they must provide an instructor on how equipment is to be used/setup/put away/etc. Unsure what to do if multiple races on the same day in a region at this time of proposal but recognize that will be a conflict until we can afford more systems. Also of concern is distance to races within regions, but again this proposal is more to get the ball rolling towards a future of all races having electronic timing.
8.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Add to rule 5 on page 7: The nose area must have a minimum radius of a 3 sphere
-There have been safety concerns with nose cones having the potential for piercing of other vehicles, spectators, or other persons especially during crash scenarios.
9.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Make Rules 3 and 5 a little more clear on what is meant by Bodywork or structural protection from head on and side impact & encloses all of the drivers body parts by changing to BODYWORK OR STRUCTURAL PROTECTION FROM HEAD ON AND SIDE IMPACT AND ENCLOSES ALL OF THE DRIVERS BODY PARTS INCLUDING ARMS/LEGS SO THEY CAN NOT ESCAPE THE VEHICLES PROTECTION IN A ROLLOVER OR ANY OTHER CRASH. SIDEWALL PROTECTIONS NEED TO BE A MINIMUM OF 4 INCHES ABOVE DRIVERS HEAD.
-Safety issues with some car designs that have open noses where pants and shoes are the only protection for the driver. In one instance saw tip of shoe sticking out during the race. Safety issues with drivers head and upper body being protected. In another instance saw a large car with nose cone above sidewalls of another smaller car.
10.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):The meaning of the yellow flag on Page 32 needs to be clarified as to represent an immediate danger and to proceed forward with caution till the danger is driven past. In addition, it will be mandatory for race hosts to designate where flaggers will be located on K and K insurance forms. The flaggers will be numbered 1-X. At the race the flagger in direct line of the accident will radio in their position #and only they and the flagger directly before them will wave yellow flags (no one else on course will wave caution flags unless more than one accident).If a red flag scenario occurs every flagger will wave their red flag.
-This is a concern when everyone is waving a yellow flag as the drivers are unsure exactly where an accident has occurred and if quite a distance away actually speeds up after having driven slowly for so long without seeing anything right where accident is. Having numbered flaggers will also help announcers/spectators/teams/etc know where the incident is actually located.
11.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Electrathon drivers do not need to have a drivers license. They DO need to be 16 years old. There will also need to be a drivers approval systems set up.
-In the NW we have practice lap time before the actual race so we set aside a time for non-licensed drivers to be on the track. We had several teachers watch them for 15 minutes at race speeds and communicated by radio what we saw from each driver as they passed. If there were no problems they were allowed to race. Their care was identified with small flags and they were watched closely for problems with their driving.
12.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Addition of Pre-Race, Race Day, and Post-Race checklist what is listed below is just a basic outline the discussion should be of additional items that would be useful for race hosts or members attending races. Please specify which of the 3 categories the advice should be added to and whether it is more for someone hosting a race or someone going to race.
-see attached forms
Kyle Keenan said
Jan 23, 2013
All rules seem logical!
Let me know if you're still wanting me to do the number decals.
bd64 said
Jan 24, 2013
What is the definition of "3 sphere" ??? I really have no idea, but some rule eliminating front-end points is long over due. OK got it, but it was confusing at first.
-- Edited by bd64 on Thursday 24th of January 2013 12:58:34 PM
mhodgertt said
Jan 24, 2013
RULE #8 ADD TO THE END OF minimum radius of a 3 sphere ****(6 inch diameter)**** TO AVOID ANY CONFUSION
RULE #9---The last line should read "ENCLOSES ALL OF THE DRIVERS BODY PARTS INCLUDING ***ARMS/LEGS*** (legs or legs/knees) SO THEY CAN NOT ESCAPE THE VEHICLES PROTECTION IN A ROLLOVER OR ANY OTHER CRASH. SIDEWALL PROTECTIONS NEED TO BE A MINIMUM OF 4 INCHES ABOVE DRIVERS ***HEAD*** (body or belly or ???) Also maybe add in here that when a driver is belted into their car they should not be able to reach out and touch the ground and should have to raise their arms to reach outside of the vehicle. I do not like arm restraint but think that we need to be sure that students can not stick their arms out to try to keep from hitting things or flipping.
Also we need to have the RACE INSPECTION FORM (rule #1) that we are proposing be posted on this site along with the PRE- DURING- POST- RACE FORM (rule 12) posted. That way we can open it up for comments.
Kyle--If this goes through we will in contact with you as we plan on having you make them unless anyone else comes up with a cheaper price.
mhodgertt said
Jan 24, 2013
RIGHT, IT SHOULD READ 3" RADIUS AND 6" DIAMETER
ProEV said
Jan 26, 2013
This is a lot of proposed rule changes to comment on in one sitting, so I am only to try and do half now.
What I find best about the electrathon Of America rule book is it's simplicity, clarity, and brevity. So what I am looking at is:
Are these rules necessary?
Are these rules worded in the clearest simplistic way?
1. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Page 39. Add the NW inspection sheet to the handbook and eliminate the one in there. Add a place (big letters) for the battery class they are in to the NW inspection sheet as well.
-see attachment which is the NW inspection sheet
This seems simple and clear but where is the actual document?
2. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Enforce number visibility more and offer purchasing option for numbers. We can offer three 6 high black numbers on a white block background for $5.00 each letters can be purchased at $2.00 each (these are a bit more, but letters are not sanctioned except for state designation when racing outside of your region which rarely occurs)
-This has been a complaint over the years by timers, flaggers, etc. By offering members the option of purchasing the basic numbers already specified in our rule book (Rule 16: Have uniform easy to see numbers that are standard.) we hope to avoid future problems and enable inspectors to enforce more rigorously on this issue. This is a cheap alternative option not a requirement to buy or a template that needs to be replicated exactly. All cars just need 6 easily readable numbers on a contrasting background.
Is this a rule change? The rules on numbers seem to be clear and unambiguous.
'Enforce number visibility more' ?
' Should Electrathon Of America offer number stickers for sale ?' seems more of a board question than a rule book issue.
3. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Do away with college class and join universities to adult/open class. Only student (HS) and open classes with corresponding battery divisions so four less classes to maintain at races. Rule listing on Page 12.
-When the club began the university students were no more prepared for building and racing cars than high school students. With the growing interest in electronic vehicles coupled with many graduating seniors having participated during high school this is no longer the case. To ensure high school students especially those just beginning in this field not to be at a disadvantage when racing we want to change having college students listed with high school students. Also to cut down on the number of classes being run without reducing battery classes we want to join them with adults in open class so race days arent as long. The battery classes are: standard batteries, solar panels standard batteries, experimental batteries, solar with experimental batteries
Page 29 of the handbook would be the section that would require modification. It defines each division- HS, College, Open and Define your own and each class-Standard, Solar and Advanced Battery.
It is not 100% clear to me whether an event organizer is required to sanction a division if three or more enter that division. I kind of read it as the organizer is not required to run a College division if they do not want to.
I suppose if the College division was removed, organizers could still use the 'define your own' clause to create a College division if they want it.
My temptation would be to clean up the wording to make it clear that the event organizer does not need to run a separate division if they choose not to and let each event decide whether they want to run a college class or not.
4. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Adding a communication ruling as too many kids are on the phone including texting while driving in a race. Some options for consideration under this ruling are: (1) Push to talk radios are permitted as long as the driver is not distracted by the action of PTT. (2) Cell phones are permitted only when vehicle is at a stop (such as a breakdown) or when in hands free mode on an open line (no dialing). (3) Texting is banned whenever the driver is physically in the car. (4) Penalty for violation of the above rule is the offending car and drivers immediate removal (disqualification). After 2 violations in same calendar year the driver will be banned from using any electronic form of communication for the rest of the year.
Do we care if someone texts, dials or chats while driving. Not specifically. What we care about is whether their behavior impacts other race vehicles. Page 34 clearly states 'failure to remain aware of the surround vehicles as evidenced by repeatedly cutting off...'
If the race steward see unsafe behavior he has the right and responsibility to pull that driver over for a little 'chat'.
5. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Eliminate rule 10.3 and add ground clearance ruling: The minimum ground clearance is to be judged by the cars ability to roll over a 2x2 board that is milled to be 1 ½ x 1 ½.
-There were reported problems and delays at races where cars took out timing wires at finish lines. There is also a safety consideration as some car designs experienced loss of steering or braking when nose cone was down. This will also provide inspectors and builders with a more uniform tangible device to ensure compliance.
I think the concern addressed by 10.3 is the danger that a tire might come off the rim at speed and the lowest point of the vehicle dig in and cause a flip. Different tires have different side wall heights. For example, if you have a tire with a three inch side wall, an inch and a half ride height will not help you. I think 10.3 is more effective than setting a stock ride height.
6. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Drop rule 15.4 about the closed loop/open loop so there is not any confusion on rules 15.2 and 15.3 and driver being in control. Closed loop means the pit area could be in control of the power of the car.
-Need to ensure closed loop devices are used for monitoring purposes only not for operation during the race. It is okay to use during practice or in the pits.
If it is legal for, say, a computer to control the magnitude of the power as long as the driver controls the ON/OFF, then 15.4 needs to be there. This does not authorize the pits to control the vehicle because that would violate 15.3.
mhodgertt said
Jan 28, 2013
Hi all, We hoped that each of these proposals would be in their own forum and then it would be easier to follow those threads but that did not work out that way. We also hoped to get the proposed inspection form up on the forum for comments. Neither of those happened. As president over the years I have to admit that I have gotten fairly discouraged on getting anything to happen nation wide. There seems to be a lot of "we will do what we want in our area and not worry or give input to the rest of the EA group. And as the old saying goes if you want something done do it yourself. I don't have the energy or time to do EVERYTHING by myself.
When Aimee and I sat down a few weeks back and put together all of the proposals from the members forum along with things people had emailed me about this is what we came up with. We did toss out some that were complete changes to the EA system like human/electric hybreds, letting electric motor cycles race, etc. I agree that many of these rules only need to be enforced at the event. The problem is that many team interpret the rules differently since the rules are simple and brief and mostly clear. This was an attempt on some rules to add a little more clarity. We have many teams that come to races with things outside the letter of the law but argue that they do not violate the written rule and there fore should be allowed.
REASONING BEHIND SOME RULES: 1) This sheet is more specific and is carried from race to race with inspectors notes. So if in race #1 the inspector says 'you can race in this race but by the next have the chain guard improved by doing ...' the next inspector can see that this was addressed and not let the car race in the second unless it was totally corrected. In many areas we have different inspectors at each race.
2) Again we let cars race with black numbers on a blue background because we don't want to tell them they can't race after all they have done. The wording on this just says that we will enforce this rule and if they don't want to paint their car/number in contrasting numbers they can buy white on black decals
3) Again there are too many classes and the feeling of many is that if 3 or more teams in a class show up they should have their own class. In the NW we don't have any solar cars but due have experimental batteries. With as many as 4 classes in each of the groups we felt, with the reasons given (not exact wording I would use but??) that the college class fit very well into the open class. Most colleges have an engineer instructor and more resources (sponsors, tools, etc.) than most open but then colleges over engineer to make them too cool and most (at least in the NW) don't do any better than the average open cars.
4) This is like using a cell phone when driving a regular car. We all knew that if I text or dial or even talked while driving I many not be in total control but still did it. Now that many states give out huge tickets for that many less drivers are using hand on phones. The same we hope is true for EA drivers. We used to have a number of students texting, etc. and since we start each race with the penalties mentioned and have each flagger looking for it there have been very few problems with it.
5) This one is end confusion and make it easy to check during inspections. I agree if totally enforce the sidewall rule may be better but the quick glance that I see most inspectors give about ground clearance and side walls does not catch many cars that are too low. With timing grids becoming more common the height is more important so that they don't cause a race to be stopped while repairs to the grid wires on the track are fixed.
6) I don't think that some one in the pits should be able to directly control anything in the car while it is motion. They can monitor and relay information to the driver and they can adjust their driving as needed. I think that this is dangerous as the pits don't know what is happening out on the track and also it is against the spirit of EA in that this is to a driver's race and not a computer.
7) This is just a suggestion that was put out and in the NW where we have as many as 72 cars show up for a race any type of hand counting was a joke and since we have gone to electronic lap counting things have been much better.
8) Again the rule say can not have any sharp parts that can penetrate another car many did not see that a sharp point on the nose violated this. I think this happens more in areas with high speed tracks like 2 mile Nascar ovals.
9) Again just trying to make the wording more clear so cars are built safe. We see many cars with kids knees sticking up in the air or the side of the body well below the waist line. If a car flipped the knees would be gone, and in a crash the drivers arms automatically stick out to try to 'stop' the other car and will be broken. If a T-bone crash the low car can be driven over and if not protected vital organs can be damaged.
10) At some race it there is a stopped car anywhere on the track then all of the corners will start waving their flags. After a few of these the drivers are like in the boy who called wolf and ignore a flag that is a real caution and cause more wrecks. This is again just a clarification to make sure that flaggers (race organizers) use the yellow flags correctly.
11) As it states in the explanation for this there are areas where kids can not get licenses while in high school, either age is 17 or for financial reason. These kids, if they are capable of driving well and safely, should be able to drive
12) This is just something that Aimee wanted to see added to the handbook to since so many race officials are having trouble doing the things needed to run a race. She and I thought that this would help them get things done on time and be aware of what all they needed to do.
AGAIN SO FAR THIS POST HAS BEEN UP FOR 9 DAYS AND YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TO ADD ANY INPUT OR SUGGESTIONS OR COMMENTS ON THE ACTUAL RULE PROPOSALS. WE WANTED TO END ALL COMMENTS BY THE 28th WHICH IS TOMORROW AND THEN MEMBERS COULD VOTE ON THE ISSUES. WE ALSO HOPEFULLY HAVE A BOARD MEETING SCHEDULED FOR NEXT WEEK SO THE BOARD CAN VOTE ON THESE ISSUES AND WE CAN TRY TO GET AN UPDATED HANDBOOK DESIGNED, PRINTED, AND MAILED OFF BY THE END OF FEBRUARY. As a president I am supposed to be in charge of the organization but without others I don't have the time to do all of this by myself!!!!
Zaine Stapleton said
Jan 28, 2013
I like the new rule proposals. And the one about the remote control feature is just a bad idea waiting to happen if someone was to actually do that (which as far as I know no one has ever done that sort of thing.) I can see the advantage if a team could see and relay info to its driver about if they need to speed up or slow down, but not remotley control the car.
My opinion about the communication rule is that it's up to the driver if they choose to use it or not. Definitely no texting whats so ever since your physically taking your eyes off the road, and the wheel as a matter of fact. If your pulled over, say your car broke down and your out of the car, then sure texting is totally fine. I've seen so many people on the actual road texting while driving and either they speed up or slow down. I wouldn't want someone getting into an accident at an electrthon race going either 10mph or 70mph when texting. You need to be totally focused when driving and do your thing when out on the track. Save it, if you need to get a hold of someone during a race, then have an open line where your hands free. Just take responsibility when using an open line.
The inspection sheet used in the NW is more understanding than having a car looked over for 15 minutes with the sheet provided in the book. I would strongly encourage the one used in the NW since it is much simpler. I did do inspections at the Lane Community College race last year for the first time and it went very smoothly. I thought it was going to be difficult; turns out it wasn't.
That's what I have to say about the new rule propsals. Certian things just need to be added, tweaked, or deleted out of the current rules.
Zaine
electrathon said
Jan 29, 2013
Attachment for the race checklist:
THINGS TO DO TO HOST A RACE PRE-RACE DAY ITEMS-
FIND A LOCATION FOR YOUR RACE. This can be a parking lot or actual trackdetermine cost which is often free for parking lots be sure that there is enough room to set up a track at least 1/4 mile long and 20 feet wide there needs to be enough space for pits for all teams along with inspection and other official areas ideally there are electrical outlets available and restroom, water, and food available. The track needs to be able to be secured from spectators and motor traffic crossing during the race decide what you use to mark the track layout and to avoid collisions from opposing directions Figure out where spectators will observe the race and how to secure it. FIND SPONSOR (NOT REQUIRED BUT CAN GREATLY HELP WITH COSTS) They can help pay insurance and other fees----If you can obtain then race entrance fees may be $0.00
OBTAIN INSURANCE--at least 5 weeks before race Contact Electrathon AmericaAimee Hart
CONTACT ALL CURRENT LOCAL RACERS ABOUT RACE AND GET ON E.A. CALANDAR Have firm times, etc. for all aspects of the day. Fill out the form on the EA web site and submit to have your event sanctioned. Get your event on the EA web site calendar and be sure all data is correct well before actual race. Sending out a flyer to all local racers is a great idea and increases turnout. RACE DAY ITEMS-
SET UP TRACK--do this very early in day or the day before if possible/ Set barriers up using tires, hay bales, or other barriers to stop vehicles from leaving the track. Get and set up snow fence or other crowd control. Get cones or something to make track more visible to drivers and set them up for actual track. Get flags for racegreen, red, black, checkered and several yellow caution flags for corners. Get any signs / banners etc. that you may want for the race.
INSPECTIONS--try to get at least 3 to 6 helpers with at least one with experience with Electrathons Inspect all new cars completely using appropriate inspection sheets See check off sheet in handbook Look over all pre-inspected vehicles if part of a race series to be sure still safe Look at inspection sheet from 1st race to see notes etc. (these should travel from race to race) Ask about changes since last race and note on inspection sheet Look to see if things still looks OK if not inspect that area as if new Check license of drivers Check to be sure Electrathon America Registration is OK Weigh batteries--73 pounds or less unless on the OK list if they are lead acid. If experimental class then the handbook listed weights for each type of battery. Weigh drivers--180 pounds or more with ballast
DRIVER MEETING--before race after cars are inspected Discuss items you want to stressthis is for fun not Indy 500 etc. Remind drivers there is no bumping and proper passing techniques Point out narrow or more challenging dangerous parts of course Go over flags and what they mean
CONTACT LOCAL NEWS Contact local TV, newspapers, and radio. Draws a crowd and makes the race more exciting along with helps with sponsorship in the future SET UP LAP COUNTING--what ever method your area has come up with Some areas have a counter for each 4-6 cars and one person calling all the cars numbers as they pass In these there is usually another person writing down the numbers sequencially as the pass Other area have people from each team do thisoften one counts another teams car and one observes their own car being counted by another teams member Some areas are using an automatic transponder system to count laps
DIVIDE CARS INTO HEATS AND ORGANIZE STARTING LINEUP Decide how many cars can compete on your track safely. If you have more cars than this you will need to have more than one heat. Dividing into heats can be done several ways some designate open and high school heats or novice and experienced or divide vehicles up by money expended in construction into different heats Starting lineup can be done several ways also, some use order of inspection, others use past race results, and others just have cars line up as they arrive on the starting grid as first come first served
HAVE CORNER MARSHALS You will need one at the beginning of each corner since drivers will not see around the corner. Also place one at any location that you deem could be dangerous or likely to have wrecks Be sure they understand yellow flags and to use them only if danger in their area just after curve or a REAL need to slow down to avoid dangerous situation. Dont have them yell Wolf too often or they will be ignored
START RACE HEATS ON TIME Other wise it gets worse and further behind as the day goes and no one wants races to go until dark
POST-RACE DAY ITEMS-
FIGURE WINNERS AND ANNOUNCE PLACES FOR EACH ASAP If possible try to list all finishers and the number of laps they completed and their finish order ASAP If trophies etc. are being given out hand them out as soon as possible after the race If you are giving lap money, find the total number of laps in the race let racers know how much money per lap will be given out Send out the lap money within a week if possible, this will make teams feeling the race was organized and they will want to come back.
CLEAN UP ALL BARRIERS AND SNOW FENCE AND THE TRACK, PIT, AND PARKING AREA This will help in having more races at this location Send thank you notes, tax write offs, etc. to location owners and any sponsors
WRITE AN ARTICLE ABOUT THE EVENT WITH THE RESULTS Send both to Electrathon America for the Web and the newsletter again try to do this within a week You might also want to send an article to the local newspaper as it might make the paper.
electrathon said
Jan 29, 2013
NW Checklist to add tot he rulebook:
ELECTRATHON ENTRY INSPECTION CHECK LIST OWNERS NAME/SCHOOL _____________________________________________________________________________________ VEHICLES NUMBER/STATE ____________________ HIGH SCHOOL _______ COLLEGE _______ OPEN ________ BATTERY CLASS: LEAD ACID ______ --OR-- EXPIREMENTAL ______ TYPE ____________________________ SYSTEM VOTAGE _____________ BATTERY QUANTITY __________________ SOLAR CLASS YES / NO PROOF OF ELECTRATHON AMERICA COMPETITOR MEMBERSHIP (CARD OR LIST) _______________ VEHICLE _____ Electrathon America vehicle number clearly visible (6+ high and contrasting color) _____Visual inspection of structural integrity appears good _____Overall car no more that 48 (4) wide at widest point and 12 feet long or less _____Roll bar seems able to support drivers weight--bracing at highest point _____Roll bar protects driver through full range of motion side to side and forward _____If roll bar is not one piece, it is triangulated at all joints _____Driver stays under plane (roll bar to front support) when seat belted in and leans forward _____Tires are pneumatic and tread is in acceptable condition _____Ground clearance is so that if any or all tires are flat the car is still off of the ground (1 1/2) _____Bottom pan so that driver cannot make contact with the track and protects driver from ground _____Bodywork or structural protection from head on and side impact & encloses all of the drivers body parts including legs/feet so they can not escape the cars protection. Sides high enough that if other cars go over it in a wreck the driver is not hurt _____No exposed sharp edges or components. Nose cone not overly pointed or sharp. _____Chain and motor area has guard to protect the driver and others _____Good visibility and field of vision- checked with clipboard held in several locations _____Rear view mirror(s) at least 8 square inches-can see clearly on both sides of the vehicle. _____Axle diameter at least 12 mm / 1/2 unless supported on both ends _____Cotter pins or safety wire used to secure cantilevered wheel axle nutsnot just lock or jam nuts _____5 point seat belt system is as per rulebooksecurely attached at least 3 below body parts, can lift the weight of the vehicle. Holds the driver secure and immobile. _____Brake inspection-Car will not roll when pushed from behind (skids or stationary) and has two wheels on the same axle with brakes. _____Steering inspection-Can make 25 foot turning radius and appears safe and stable at high speeds _____Throttle automatically shuts off when released _____Circuit breaker or fuse between batteries and motor of correct size for wiring gauge and length _____Inside kill Switch driver accessible and the outside kill switch has a 4 red triangle & easy to use _____Wiring appears safe (terminals tight, insulation good, frame not grounded, wires not rubbing, etc.) _____Batteries securely mounted to structural part of car so they cannot come loose in an accident _____If lead acid batteries-- weigh less than 73 pounds and are non-leakable standard acid batteries Battery manufacture and model (or serial) number __________________________________________________ _____If experimental batteriestype is approved in handbook and appropriate weight for type INITIAL INSPECTORS COMMENTS OR RECOMMENDATIONS: ______________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
DRIVERS INSPECTED AT EACH RACE AND CARS CHECKED AGAIN 1st EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 2nd EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 3rd EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 4th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 5th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
DRIVERS INSPECTED AT EACH RACE AND CARS CHECKED AGAIN Page 2
6th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 7th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 8th EVENT INSPECTED _____________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 9th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 10th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
DRIVERS INSPECTED AT EACH RACE AND CARS CHECKED AGAIN Page 3
11th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 12th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 13th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 14th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ 15th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________ DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________ _____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________ _____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18 _____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility: _____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only) INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________ _____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
electrathon said
Jan 29, 2013
Mike and others,
I could not figure out how to attach the two forms more cleanly (I am only partially computer literate) so I had to just paste them in.
Personally I am in favor of the above changes, some are a long time comming and it will make a lot of the events simpler. When you are running a race and have to inspect 50 cars in 45 minutes or less it can be a very dificult task. You have differant inspectors who all are looking at the car differantly, so simplification is a great tool (liek the 2x2 rule, fast and simple).
Texting and phone use: Yes, it happens. The kid I caught taxting swore he has not a hazerd, yet I had parents, teachers and corner marshals all report his eratic driving to me. That is just one example. I am in favor of comunication to the track. Durring many races I have had numerous corner marshals who refused to even use their radios, let alone tell me what bad was happening on the track. I often times get the best info from our own drivers warning us about the dangers on the track (drivers, debris, spectators and etc). So we need comunication, it just needs to be safe.
If you have ever tried to count a race the visible number issue would make sence. Many of the numbers are nearly not visible at all, some can be seen from 100' away. try counting 12 cars in eight second as the pass in fromt of you and you will understand.
Aaron
ProEV said
Jan 29, 2013
Mike,
I agree that it would be a lot easier to comment if the rules were split into different threads. It gets really confusing as one big list.
I also think many of the rule change proposals are ideas and need to be refined into specific wordings before they can be voted on and implemented.
Posting them on the forum and having people comment seems the right way to do that but because this is not a high traffic forum, it looks like it needs to be a longer time for people to see the proposals.
I would not get too stressed over it. The rule book as it stands is quite good. These seem to be just minor tweaks.
What about just change the date on the front page of the current manual and aim at making changes next year? I do not think there is any reason to make paper copies of the manual. The electronic version is great. If anyone wants a paper version, they can print it out themselves. This will also save the organization money.
dmorgan said
Jan 29, 2013
All the changes look pretty good to me. Some should be " no-brainers" like the texting one but if its not there, somebody will do it. The rule about body restraints being 4 inches above the drivers head sounds like a push toward enclosed cars.I don't have a problem with that, I'll just have to get better at bodywork. Quick note: The 4th Annual Georgia " Run for the Peaches" is May 11, 2013. Will be sending in paperwork shortly.
cloudvolt said
Jan 29, 2013
rule 8, if pass ,will rule out more then 95% of all the cars we have now. and do noting for safety. David Cloud
David O said
Jan 29, 2013
electrathon wrote:
8.PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13):Â Add to rule 5 on page 7: The nose area must have a minimum radius of a 3 sphere
-There have been safety concerns with nose cones having the potential for piercing of other vehicles, spectators, or other persons especially during crash scenarios.
I would like more clarification on this please, as to me it is quite vague. There is no mention of materials, structure, or integrity. I could easily see someone just taping a party balloon to the front of the car that would meet the description. My point is that it would be simple to put a flimsy plastic/fiberglass cover or body panel over more substantial body structure that would not otherwise be approved. If the concern is that the front of the car has a shape that becomes a danger to other drivers, should we consider something more like a bumper or crush-zone? The shape alone does not define the level of safety.
My car for instance, has a somewhat pointed shape to the nose, but that is very flimsy fiberglass which does yield if there was an impact strong enough, which I have seen firsthand. It has been repaired many times. Its main purpose is aerodynamics, not structure. But behind that is a very strong blunt structure of about one square foot area that would not yield. Is it safe or not? I think it is quite safe, although it would not meet this proposed new rule as it is currently worded.
Also, in my experience, the largest direct danger to me has been axles sticking out. Those will punch a nice small hole in whatever it is they contact, whether it is another car or another driver. This is something else I have seen firsthand. We do have a rule for that already, but maybe that could be improved as well, to require that axles must have a 2-3" diameter hub cap to spread out the impact. That is part of why my car has all of its wheels completely surrounded with some kind of structure. It is defensive for one, but also keeps my car from damaging others when they do come into contact.
David O.
electrathon said
Jan 29, 2013
cloudvolt wrote:
rule 8, if pass ,will rule out more then 95% of all the cars we have now. and do noting for safety. David Cloud
Dave,
I can only think of a few cars that would not pass this standard. Your cars should pass easily. The radius may fail in one direction but would pass in the other. It would excede the minimum raduis test by rating it the other direction.
Aaron
Mike Frederick said
Jan 29, 2013
mhodgertt wrote:
RULE #9---The last line should read "ENCLOSES ALL OF THE DRIVERS BODY PARTS INCLUDING ***ARMS/LEGS*** (legs or legs/knees) SO THEY CAN NOT ESCAPE THE VEHICLES PROTECTION IN A ROLLOVER OR ANY OTHER CRASH. SIDEWALL PROTECTIONS NEED TO BE A MINIMUM OF 4 INCHES ABOVE DRIVERS ***HEAD*** (body or belly or ???)
I was a bit confused by that wording as well. Surely we can't have sidewalls 4" *above* the drivers head.
Also maybe add in here that when a driver is belted into their car they should not be able to reach out and touch the ground and should have to raise their arms to reach outside of the vehicle. I do not like arm restraint but think that we need to be sure that students can not stick their arms out to try to keep from hitting things or flipping.
As I steward the races in Tampa Bay, I've had his happen twice. Luckily, no serious injuries (only a midly sprained wrist in one case) but I agree that some action is needed as it is a natural reaction to a roll-over.
Other than that, the changes look good to me.
meangreen said
Jan 30, 2013
Change #1: Inspection sheet - I see no problem with that change.
Change #2: Numbers - The rule is clear enough as it is. Teams should simply be told if the scorers and officials can't see your number your car will not be scored! If the board or someone wants to offer numbers for sale, that's fine, but it doesn't require a rules change.
Change #3: Do away with college / university class - This change is unnecessary. The rulebook already allows for the consolidation of classes at the race organizers' discretion. Also, if there are several colleges in a region, they or the race organizers may wish to have them compete directly with each other without diluting the class.
Change #4: Communication - I like these proposed changes. I am absolutely against texting while driving ANYTHING.
Change #5: Ground clearance - The National Street Rod Association has a vehicle safety inspection rule that refers to the "Scrub Line". This is an imaginary line or plane formed by the bottoms of the rims of any vehicle (In other words, it is the bottoms of the rims without tires). Nothing is allowed to protrude below this line or plane. That way if one or all tires are flat, the vehicle can still be pushed or towed without dragging or digging into the road surface. Rule 10.3 sort of defines this already. Maybe it needs to be clarified AND have a minimum ground clearance added to rule 10. Any car that does not have the minimum 1.5 inch ground clearance or has any part below the "scrub line" will not be allowed to compete.
Change #6: Closed loop/open loop - I agree with this change. It is confusing as written. Also, remote control cars belong on the local R/C track, not in Electrathon. Drivers need to DRIVE!
Change #7: Lap counting - No objections here.
Change #8: This rule (Rule # 5, page 7) simply needs clarification, possibly some rewriting or additions. The proposal is to add a sub-rule specifying the minimum radius of a 3-inch sphere. First, I thought a 3-inch sphere was about the size of a baseball; apparently it means a 6-inch diameter... What about a pointed nose if it's made of styrofoam? What about a nose that has the required shape as viewed from above, but is knife-edged when viewed from the side?
Change #9: Rules 3 and 5 are pretty well written as is except as noted in proposed change #8 above. I don't understand what is meant by "SIDEWALL PROTECTIONS NEED TO BE A MINIMUM OF 4 INCHES ABOVE DRIVERS HEAD". Does this mean I'll be strapping big sheets of plywood to the sides of my cars that protrude above the roll cage? Wow, my peripheral vision is going to be severely impaired... Clarification is definitely needed here.
Change #10: Meaning of the yellow flag - I agree clarification is needed; no objections.
Change #11: Drivers - Agree. As long as there is no problem with the insurance carrier, driver qualification could be left up to the race organizers.
cloudvolt said
Jan 30, 2013
Aaron,my mistake. I thought,( sphere)meant two directions. David Cloud
cloudvolt said
Jan 30, 2013
or (all)directions. not one or two . David
mhodgertt said
Jan 30, 2013
HI GANG, I KNOW THAT SOME OF THE RULES ARE NOT WORDED CORRECTLY AND I HAVE ADDED A COUPLE OF TRIES AT EXPLAINING THEM....LIKE THE ONE ABOUT SIDE CRASH HEIGHT....AS I SAID IN A CLARIFICATION IT WAS TO BE ABOVE THE WAIST NOT HEAD!!!!!!!. PLEASE READ ALL OF THE OTHER MEMBERS COMMENTS **BEFORE*** YOU ENTER YOURS. SOME OF THE QUESTIONS BEING RAISED ARE ANSWERED IN OTHERS COMMENTS.
NEARLY ALL OF THESE RULES ARE ONES THAT WERE ON THE FORUM FOR THE LAST YEAR OR MORE AND I AM JUST PASSING ALONG THOUGHTS AND TRYING TO GET THINGS FIGURED OUT!!!!
I AGREE WITH "PRO-EV" AND I THINK THIS MAY BE HAPPENING TOO LATE TO MAKE CHANGES NOW....IF WE AS AN ORGANIZATION CAN GET OURSELVES TOGETHER ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY MAKE DECISIONS AND COME UP WITH FIRM ITEMS FOR A NEW BOOK I WOULD LIKE US TO USE THE CURRENT BOOK FOR THIS YEAR BUT POST THE THINGS THAT ARE CHANGING FOR NEXT YEAR'S BOOK AND THEN GET THAT ONE PRINTED AND READY TO SEND OUT IN 2014. WE HAVE DONE THIS IN THE PAST SO THAT TEAMS HAVE TIME TO MODIFY THEIR VEHICLES AND FIGURE OUT HOW BEST TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT IS NEEDED SO ALL ARE SAFE AND FOLLOW THE RULES.
AS PRESIDENT, IT IS MY FAULT THAT WE HAVE NOT HAD A NEW BOOK SINCE THESE RULES CAME OUT IN 2010. IN THE SPRING OF 2011, SOMEONE ELSE VOLUNTEERED TO GET RULE PROPOSALS TOGETHER AND VOTED ON AND THIS PERSON DID NOT GET IT TOGETHER AND SO THIS NEVER HAPPENED. LAST SPRING, 2012, I SAID I WAS GOING TO IT AGAIN LIKE I DID TO GET THE LAST BOOK WRITTEN IN 2009. I SENT OUT A REQUEST TO THE BOARD AND NOT ONE OF THEM REPLIED...I REMEMBERED HOW FRUSTRATED I WAS IN 2009 AND I DROPPED IT AND DECIDED TO JUST, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, JUST DO OUR OWN THING IN THE NORTHWEST. AMIEE RIGHTLY CONVINCE ME A COULE OF WEEKS AGO THIS WAS NOT THE WAY TO HANDLE IT. SO THE TWO OF US SAT DOWN AND I GAVE HER A LIST OF THE PROPOSALS THAT EVERYONE HAD SENT IN TO THE FORUM OR TO DIRECTLY ME. WE WENT OVER THEM AND THEN SHE SENT THE LIST TO AARON TO POST ON THE FORUM. A COUPLE, LIKE THE SIDE CRASH PROTECTION BEING 4" ABOVE THE HEAD AND NOT THE WAIST, WERE INTERPRETED WRONG....FOR THAT I WILL AGAIN TAKE THE BLAME AS I SHOULD HAVE DONE IT MYSELF, AARON WAS KIND ENOUGH TO ADD EVERYTHING TO THE FORUM SO THAT ALL MEMBERS COULD SEE IT AND MAKE COMMENTS. HE DID THIS TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY AND MUCH BETTER THAN MY ABILITY WOULD HAVE ALLOWED ME TO DO. IF ANYONE WANTS TO VOLUNTEER TO TAKE OVER ANY OF THESE NON PAID JOBS I'M SURE NONE OF US THAT ARE TRYING TO GET THINGS DONE WOULD BE UPSET TO GIVE THE REINS OVER..... I WOULD REALLY LIKE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS AND IDEAS, BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE, SO WE CAN FIGURE IT OUT. IT WOULD BE GREAT IF THESE COMMENTS CAME WITH SUGGESTION AS TO HOW TO WORD THE RULES BETTER. THIS IS THE ONLY WAS I CN SEE THAT WE ARE GOING TO PUT THIS TOGETHER AND KEEP THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION RUNNING!!!!!!
NOSE CONE PROPOSED CHANGE********* Dave and Aaron. Yes the 3" radius 6" diameter sphere nose cone was to be in all directions. I measured the Destiny body in our shop and at 3" back from the tip it is 7" across so it is larger than a 6" DIAMETER sphere in all directions. I will have to measure my Wolverine face nose cone and see if it qualifies or if I will need to modify it if this rule passes. Again this was a rule on the forum for the last year with little input!!!!
As far as a balloon attached to the nose....I agree that the letter of this rule would allow that but that is obviously not what was meant. So the wording needs to be improved. We want a structural part of the car that has this size or larger. As far as a sharper nose being better for aerodynamics any wind tunnel test will show that you want a slightly rounded nose cone not a pointed one unless you are near supersonic speeds. A pointed nose caused a wider bow wave and more drag at the speeds we are traveling than a slightly rounded one. Fiberglass is not necessarily flimsy as stated above. I have seen a well built sturdy nose hit a post head on at ~30 and only slightly crack when the metal hoop inside it was 3" further inside and the fiberglass nose cone by itself is what stopped the car. So a very pointed fiberglass nose could take our ribs, kidneys, etc. in a T-bone crash. To test this rule I would propose that we find some round bowls or ??? that are about 3" deep and 6" across. If we put them over the nose cone, does the bowl touch the car at the bowl's rim (top) or is the nose cone too pointed and it touches the bottom of the bowl and keep the rim from touching the sides. If this part does not make sense let me know and I will try to do a better job of explained this testing method.
Mike Hodgert--president by default of Electrathon America.
electrathon said
Jan 30, 2013
Mike,
If the radius is in BOTH/ALL directions I have to agree with Dave, virtually all cars in the US will have to be altered. None of our cars will pass and none of the new cars we have built this year will pass. A flat bottomed car with a very large (12") radius upwards and 18" raduis nose side to side will fail this standard.
A bowl could not be used to test because the one side being greater than the other would stop it. You would have to use a flat guage and test it in multiple directions. I feel that a 12" tall nose with a 3" diamiter side to side (think Cloud car) is less likely to punch into a car than a car with a 6" ball nose on it.
By your description I am oposed to this change.
Aaron -lap counter and forum administrator by default
cloudvolt said
Jan 30, 2013
NO , the bowl will not work. if the top view is like (>).David
arcflash said
Jan 30, 2013
In my opinion you do not need both rule 8 and rule 9, only rule 9. If a car has adequate sidewall protection, then car's piercing each other should not be an issue. I would think it would be easier to put a little more structure in the sidewall than having to re do the entire front end of the car.
Also since we're talking safety, maybe there should be an inspection for weld quality/ fabrication techniques specifically for the roll cage. I've seen quite a few roll bars that look like they would fold in if they were actually in a roll over. Or maybe better enforcing that the bar must be above one's head ( have seen a couple cars with heads above the bar). I admit the weld inspection may be going a bit far for mostly high school students, but I do welding/fab for a job so I am more critical of those things.
mhodgertt said
Jan 30, 2013
Aaron, I agree the bowl will not work in both directions, I was not thinking this through all the way. But a 6" diameter half circle cut out of plywood would work. Think crab measuring device. If it is wider side to side and top to bottom than the 6" gap 3" back then the gauge would not touch the bottom of the curve of the device. Dave's cars I am almost positive are 6" wide when you measure them across 3" back from the tip of the nose. And the up and down is far above the 6" across 3" back from the tip since it is about 12" tall. So it would pass. Dave can you measure back 3" and see how wide your nose is at that cross section. If the nose is blunt like most cars and Dave's the flat bottom does not make a difference. The nose up and down is wider than 6" 3" back from the tip.
Mike
bd64 said
Jan 30, 2013
What is the definition of "3 sphere" ??? I really have no idea, but some rule eliminating front-end points is long over due. O
This is the type of construction Rule *8 is trying to address. Fortunately, these vehicles are no longer in existance and I hpoe no others like them will ever be made.
bd64 said
Jan 30, 2013
This is Nebraska's version of frontal impact protection
"
Impact Protection Each vehicle shall have structural members at the front of the vehicle that act as a barrier, or bumper, to protect the feet of the driver and to help prevent intrusion into another vehicle in the event of contact. The minimum dimension of these structural members shall be eight (8) inches in the horizontal and eight (8) inches in the vertical dimensions. Blunt aerodynamic fairings may be used in front of the structural members to enhance airflow. The barrier must be made of materials that meet the minimum standards for frame components. This rule applies to vehicles with a single front steer wheel as well."
cloudvolt said
Jan 31, 2013
Mike, I do agree,we need a new rule for this. but this is not working.what is behind,the nose cone? Shannon new car 3" back 4.2".call me David Cloud 425-788-9293.
mhodgertt said
Jan 31, 2013
How would this rule work if the definition was to read something like the minimum front nose cone must have a combined distance of 12" horizontal and vertical when measured 3" from the tip. So if a car was 4" on the horizontal then it must be 8" on the vertical direction. Again this is when it is measured 3" back from the very tip. It would not take much to make a caliper of sorts out of something like a ruler that had a 3" long 90 degree arm coming off of the end of it and a 3" long slide that moves along the ruler to measure the distance accurately within a 1/16 of an inch. This would measure the width 3" back in the horizontal and in the vertical and then add the two measurements together. I know Dave's new car and it is not anything that would puncture another car and endanger the driver of another vehicle. It is fairly tall but narrower than I remembered it being. Dave see if your car would qualify in this system. I am not married or really pushing any of these rules but think that some clarification is needed for safety. After looking at some cars we occasionally see in the NW and have seen in pictures at other races, I think we need to limit how pointed a nose cone is. Things like the cars that 'bd64' posted which are just plain scary but the rules don't forbid them except in spirit. Lets be creative in thinking of how to not allow a dangerous car but let in all of the safe cars without making them redesign their cars. This is where the creative minds of those in this group can be very helpful and help shape the future of EA and improve safety but still allow people to be inventive. Mike
cloudvolt said
Feb 1, 2013
Mike, So we can have a 6"d flat with a 2.9 spike or (bd64)sticking out of a beach 2". But not a 16" hookworm leading the way. David
cloudvolt said
Feb 1, 2013
beach ball
mhodgertt said
Feb 1, 2013
Dave, I don't know how to word this!!!! That is what this is for. From others in the forum under "pointed nose" there are those that feel we need to add a rule about 'how sharp a nose can be." We have the one army national guard car that races at Lacey some times that is scary to be on the track with. GIVE US SOME IDEA HOW TO WRITE THIS RULE so all are safe. I don't want to be the only one trying to fix the problem. My car, the fiberglass Wolverine nose cone i build does not fit the 6" diameter sphere rule either so if it passes I need to remake my car as well. I am just trying to do want some members said they wanted!!!! Mike
Mike Frederick said
Feb 1, 2013
Not stupid but here's my suggestion:
Rounded noses: The radius of the nose shall be no less than 3" in any direction. (This would include the distance from the tip)
Flat noses: The height and width of the nose shall be no less than 5.25 " (Approx area of the 3" radius)
Pointed Noses: The sharpest angle in any direction shall be no less than 45 (or 60 or whatever) degrees. (Note The Robinson's/meangreen's nose)
Trying to avoid a one size fits all solution.
-- Edited by Mike Frederick on Friday 1st of February 2013 02:59:49 PM
taylor jo said
Feb 1, 2013
if rule 8 pass i know my car i just built would not be able to race, i understand wanting the cars to be safe. But the teachers running the teams would not let a student build and drive a unsafe car. Putting this rule in will not only cut down on the different designs of cars running but also take out most of the cars before we even hit the track. the first race is in five weeks and most everyone already has alot on their plate with getting there cars ready for the race. and having to cut off the front of their car and start over is out of the question for me to be able to get it done. in almost ever race i was in i was bumped or what have you and i never got hurt. so i am a no on rule 8.
Taylor jo
mhodgertt said
Feb 1, 2013
How about this if the definition was to read something like:
The structural part (rigid fiberglass, or metal bracing, or ??) of the nose cone's very tip must be flat or rounded in shape and the front area must at a minimum have a combined distance of 12" horizontal and vertical when measured 3" straight back from the tip. So if a car was 4" on the horizontal then it must be 8" on the vertical direction. Again this is when it is measured 3" straight back from the very frontal tip.
????????????????????
Again this is just a suggestion!!!! Please don't just say how stupid it is, but give some other suggestions!!!!! And how we can test/inspect them easily at a race. A few cars have problems that are unsafe for all cars on the track. We need to fix this so they can be told they can not race unless they fix the problem because of this rule!
mhodgertt said
Feb 1, 2013
As far as all of these changes coming too late...I agree but many members told Aimee they wanted a "new updated, revised 2013 handbook" and so I am trying to comply with their reasonable request since the last one was done in 2009. I personally think we should vote on and adopt/or not the new rules at this time and let everyone know that these rules will be in effect for the 2014 race season and then print the book and start to send it out with new memberships this summer, winter for the 2014/15 race seasons. Mike
ProEV said
Feb 1, 2013
MIke,
How about just having a vote on just whether the improved 'Electrathon Entry Inspection ' form and ' To put on a race' sheet should be used in the manual ( since they do not seem to be a problem )?
Voting on the other rules might mean a poorly thought out rule might pass and we would all have to live with it despite the hardships it might cause some racers.
This reason I would like to see a new manual is so that potential new racers do not see the 2010/2011 Handbook and think the sport is no longer active. Just changing the date on the cover would solve that problem.
meangreen said
Feb 3, 2013
It looks like the shape of a car's nose is the biggest stumbling block we're having...
Mike Frederick mentioned (posted above) my cars as a possible example, so here they are. Notice that they do not come to a sharp point, but each car has a 1.25" diameter flat fender washer integrated into the nose. That was deliberate to reduce the possibility of puncturing the bodywork of another car in a collision. Mike Hodgertt suggested a plywood template with a 6" diameter half-circle cut out to use as a gauge, so I made one. I checked the noses on my cars both horizontally and vertically and happily discovered that they would pass this type of inspection, but I would guess that some of the cars here in Florida might not. Most would pass one way, but possibly not the other. For example, one of our long-time competitor's cars would easily pass the horizontal test because it is about 20 inches wide and straight across, but vertically it has the body sloped downward and has about a 2" diameter rolled shape at the front bottom edge. Even the Blue Sky Aerocoupes, with the lip at the bottom, may be questionable depending on how the gauge is used. The "go; no-go gauge" could be a good idea with a little refinement and instruction on how it should be used. Also, whatever we decide on design, maybe we should include a delay in enforcement. For example, state that cars must comply by January 2014. That way we aren't immediately scrapping half the cars in the country right in the middle of the current season.
I cast half of my team's votes to pass and half against the nose cone rule. I did this since we have not figured out how to word it and make it work for all thus I sort of abstained in the voting of this rule. I sort of like my idea from above with maybe a different line than the "rounded in shape" but it is still not all inclusive:
""The structural part (rigid fiberglass, or metal bracing, or ??) of the nose cone's very tip must BE REASONABLY BLUNT AND NOT HAVE A SPIKED NARROW POINTED shape and the front area must at a minimum have a combined distance of 12" horizontal and vertical when measured 3" straight back from the tip. (Example: If a car was 4" on the horizontal then it must be 8" on the vertical direction.) Again this is when it is measured 3" straight back from the very frontal tip of the car.""
With this rule Blue Sky cars with the flat bottom but fairly wide and blunt nose above that would pass, and the 20" wide and 2" tall Florida car would pass, Cloud's cars would pass as they are 4.2" X 8+", my car would pass as it is 5" wide and 8" tall.
Can anyone come up with a better idea or wording? Again we all agree that we need a rule like this but it is hard to put into black and white what is safe and what is not.
electrathon said
Feb 4, 2013
Mike,
So are peopel voting now? You said you split your votes.
Aaron
Zaine Stapleton said
Feb 4, 2013
Honestly after reading the last couple of posts for this rule change this is getting way too complex and fustrating for everyone who chimes in...
How about just a rule that says no pointed nose cones/frontal areas on the cars period. No fusing around with a stupid guage that would stir up arguments and set the start time even further back before a race. Just keep it simple, which is one of the main goals with Electrathon racing.
Examples: rounded points like my car, wide areas like Mike's car or the Centennial cars are okay; just NO POINTED NOSE CONES AT ALL. Best example I can come up with is (Mike or anyone that was in the 2010 race season can agree) car #107 driven by Alec Robertson/Preston Henne. They had a definate pointed nose on their car that did come to a long point. Another exampe would be the Clouds newest car, not the purple pink car, but the white car. This car does have a point on the nose of the car, but they have a tire up front and the point is not that long compared to #107.
Look at the following examples I've got on here. These are photos from the 2010/2011 season in the Northwest.
My car #59 has a rounded point that is down low. I would say this would pass according to the no pointed cones/frontal area.
Same goes for #51, rounded and down low.
Centennial #12 would pass. Has a wide area, and the 'point' in this case is down low.
Hood River #32 would pass. Wide area up front.
The Henry's #2 (the yellow/white car with the smiley face) would pass. Point is ramped down, and is sloping downward too. Yes, it does sort of have a point, but it's down low so this wouldn't be a issue.
Mike's car #38 would pass. It's rounded and there is such a wide area on the front it can't pierce another car.
Florida car #8 would not pass. Point is up and not low to the ground. Plus the point is not rounded (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm using this as an example. No hard feelings against you or your car.)
Kirk's #555 would pass. Yes, it is sort of a point. But it's rounded and I've seen his car when it's not moving and the nose does sit low to the ground. Plus it's vertical as well on the front.
#107 would not pass. Has a definate point on the front. Point is also up high so this could pose as a threat incase of a t-bone situation.
Clouds #41 would pass. Yes, it does have a point up high, but there is a vertical section on the actual nose of the car since it is front wheel drive. And it's a short rounded point.
Pictures like these could be used for good/bad examples in the updated rule book if that is still happening or not with an explanation of what you (the builder) is trying to aim for. This is my suggestion to keep things more simple for everyone, and to keep people from getting more agitated as well.
Aaron, Yes, all of the registered members from 2012 or 2013 received an email saying that they need to cast their votes by Midnight Monday night to be counted from Aimee last week.
We are having a board meeting on Tuesday at 4:00 that all are welcome to call in on to go over the results and work on other items. Mike
meangreen said
Feb 5, 2013
I've been thinking about this all weekend and re-reading the posts here (including my own). There are lots of good points made and I have come to agree with Zaine - this is too complex to find a simple solution that everyone will be happy with...
Zaine gives some examples above and his idea of whether some of them would pass or not. The nose on the #8 Florida car is made of foam and won't punch through anything stronger than cardboard. As the rules are written right now, the only car I see there that is obviously in violation of them is the #107 car. That nose cone is pointed and may violate rule 5.6 (5.6 - The vehicle must not have any sharp edges, corners or protrusions that could cause injury. Any questionable exposed portion of the vehicle should be cut off, rounded or blunted with durable padding.) However, if that nose cone on #107 is made of foam or poster board, or some other collapsable material, is it still illegal? Cloud's #41 is nicely blunted, but it sits so high that the concern here might be that that nose would come into the driver compartment of another, lower car. Should we now propose a maximum height for noses? Anything we do is going to "open a can of worms".
After much thought, I believe that the rules 3, 4 and 5 are clear enough as written and should be left as is. It then falls on the tech inspectors to exercise common sense in matters of safety.
Zaine Stapleton said
Feb 5, 2013
I was just suggesting a solution for the nose cone issue. But I do agree, it should be a no brainer to the inspector like MeanGreen said.
The rules he mentioned should be left alone and decided by a inspector with commone sense, then if there is an issue then the team has until the next race to have it fixed/modified/etc.
Zaine
-- Edited by Zaine Stapleton on Tuesday 5th of February 2013 02:42:07 AM
WEElliott said
Apr 2, 2013
I know I am late to the game, but I have a few safety related issues that I found in the rulebook. I was on the 2004 University of Maryland FSAE team that rolled their car at competition, so am familiar with what is at work in a rollover.
I have raced cars for years and am familiar with the rulebooks of a few organizations when it comes to roll bars and harnesses. When I read the EA book regarding belts, I was quite surprised by rule 18.4. It indicates that the shoulder belt mounting point must be 3" below the shoulders. This differs greatly from all auto-racing rules. Unfortunately it does not only differ, but it is contrary, would not be legal in any of them, and is unsafe.
When the top mounting point is significantly below the shoulder, any use of that belt will cause spinal compression. If you think about what would happen when a person is thrown violently against the belts, it would be akin to tightening those belts with hundreds of pounds of force. If that belt is pulling downward, it will compress their spine. Some organization is mandate seatbelt mounting angles of up to 30° above horizontal and 5° below. Some say 20 in each direction. One says 20 above, 10 below. Some say that the belt must leave the shoulder as close to 90° from the spine, but not to be more than 40° below horizontal (this is written for consideration of car cars where the driver is very reclined. As the rule is now, and how the illustration in the rule book represents it, this will cause spinal compression, which is serious. From what I have heard, speculation is that any allowance for the mounting point to be below the shoulder is only to allow for drivers that are slightly taller than who the car was designed for, but that technical inspectors prefer horizontal and above mountings.
So the diagram accompanying rule 18.4 represents a belt system that would be specifically illegal in all forms of auto racing I have come across. Technically no angle is given, so it would be possible to be within the 3 inch rule as long as the horizontal distance between the mounting point and the shoulders allowed the angle to be shallow enough to come within the 5° or 20° requirement. But I strongly believe that the mounting point rule needs to be changed. If it were a scale drawing, with that 50° angle or so, it would definitely fail.
I propose that rule 18.4 be changed to "The shoulder belt must be attached to a structural point behind the shoulders. The belt must be within 20° of horizontal between the mounting point and driver's shoulders. Belt mounting points above the height of the shoulder is preferred."
I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, but I have a few more safety related items. For the roll bar, in rule 4.4 it shows that the helmet must lie below a line extending from the top of the front tires to the top of the roll bar. I have two separate issues with this rule.
In auto racing usually there is another measurement in this rule, like the helmet must not come within 1 or 2 inches (depends on the organization) of that line. This allows for the dynamic forces involved, like how the seatbelts stretch or how the shoulder/neck area will deform to allow that portion of the body to move towards the top of the car when gravity switches direction. It also attempts to compensate for any curvature of the ground. So I think we should change the rule to include this extra area, whether it be 1 inch or 2. I understand that this may mean modifying current roll bars, but this is safety we're dealing with.
My second issue with rule 4.4 is that the line in question goes to the top of the tires. In auto racing this line goes to a hard point. Tires are not hard, and in a roll over can deflect significantly if still fully inflated, and are sure to be inches shorter if not inflated. So if you imagine a scenario where a team pumps their wheels up to 90psi, debeads a front tire, then rolls, if they are right up against that line, their head will be certain to not only hit, but have to absorb the weight of the car until their spine compresses (not even talking about issues with 18.4 here) an amount created by the missing tire.
So I propose that rule 4.4 be edited to "The driver's helmet must be at least one inch from a straight line drawn between the top of the roll bar to the top of the rim of a front wheel (not tire!) or the highest structural point when the driver is securely belted in the driving position.
And now I move onto arm restraints. I witnessed the roll over at FSAE in 2004, and both the driver involved and I know for a fact that his arm restraints saved his arms. The first thing he did when he realized he was going over is put his arms up. I saw the restraints go taut. If he hadn't been wearing them, he would have had his hands up. In a vehicle traveling forward, reaching up and touching the ground almost ensures that the driver's hands will be abraded badly, wrists will possibly be broken, and even worse, it is possible for the deriver's hands to wind up crushed by the roll bar as they catch on the ground and are forced backward by the moving ground. It is very real and very serious. Restraints that loop into the lap belts of a 5 or 6 point harness and don't allow upward movement above that line referred to in 4.4 prevent all of this. Simply undoing the harness releases the restraints. Of course, I only think that these are necessary on open top cars.
So I propose the renaming of section 18.0 to Safety Restraints, and the addition of rule 18.6 "Arm restraints are required and must be worn such that the driver can release them and exit the vehicle unassisted regardless of the vehicles position. Arm restraints must be commercially manufactured. Note: Arm restraints certified to SFI Standard 3.3 and labeled as such meet this requirement." I pulled that directly out of the current FSAE rule book.
That is all I have. I regret that my first post is one that will likely stir up a hornets nest, but I am trying to look out for the safety of everyone involved. I'm sure that teams could be grandfathered in if we want to change these without jeopardizing existing vehicles, but that would be blatantly allowing them to race a car recognized as less-than-safe. Hopefully my future postings will be more light-hearted and concern more interesting stuff like design or the competition.
Have a good one, Bill
electrathon said
Apr 7, 2013
Bill,
Yes, you are pretty late to the game for ths year. The rule change voting is already underway. I will move your post the next year i that is OK wilth you.
This is the area that anyone can post any opinion about rule changes in. No problem with stiring up anything. I think some of your points are valid, but let me offer some observations too.
I the seatbelt does not hold you down by your shoulders it is very likely that it will be your necksuporting the stress. Hurt backs are bad, hurt necks are worse.
We have worked for years trying to gt participants to bring the rollbars forward and up. It has been a struggle, but most cars are now far more safer/better built than 5 years ago.they used to havethe driver sitting in front of th bar, that wasnot good, now te bar goes over the top area of the helmit.
Ive heard the arguments over the years for wrist restraints. I have seen a number (a lot) of rorrovers over the years. I have never seen a hand or arm injured. I have seen drivers who were able to reach up and push their car upright and quickly able to drive away to clear the track, improving trach safety.
I wuld like others to post their opinions and observations too.
Aaron
mhodgertt said
Apr 8, 2013
Bill, Wrist restraints: As most people in the NW can tell you, I have had my car upside down more than almost any other car over the last 10 years. I choose to hit curbs, barriers, etc. instead of another car since I don't want to take out a student's car as I feel it is mostly their race and I am just there to have fun (and try to win!!). I also had a father son team that decided to take me out at 4 of 5 races in Lacey Washington they were in and put me into curbs with an 'accidental bump' at just the wrong time. I have gone end over end twice, rolled over sideways a few times. In all of those I did not need wrist restraints. As Aaron said, twice when I just rolled upside down or onto my side I was able flip myself over and get out of the way and even won a race after that mishap. I have seen about 300 races with as many as 72 cars in a race, and I have never seen anyone receive any serious injury by not having their wrists restrained--a couple of scrapped arms that might have happened anyway. There are times that I think that wrist restraints might cause problems as drivers need to move handles quickly or reach something in their cars and not be able to because a wrist restraint tangles or just make the process more difficult. I for one am against wrist or ankle restraints that others seem to think are necessary. I feel that if the car is build so that the driver's legs are covered above the knees then the legs can not escape (rule 5.3 and 5.5). I also feel that it the sides of the car are at shoulder level or higher when the driver is buckled in then the driver should not be able to reach over and put their arm out and place it between their car and another or touch the ground unless the car is not upright (rule 5.2 and 5.5). I feel that if our cars are inspected correctly so that they are built correctly and according to the rules then the need for restraints in not needed. This is like a battery box to contain the acid on a gel cell or glass mat battery--if there is a lead acid will not come out.
On your concern with the angle of the seat belts below the shoulders I feel that a few things make our rules safer the way they are written. 1) With a few exceptions (races at NASCAR tracks and 5 mile ovals) we are not going the speed of most other races that you talk about. At 30 mph you are not going to be that far in the air have a ton of momentum when you hit the ground. 2) Since a lot of cars are build as low as possible many drivers have the roll bar just above their helmet (mine is about 5" above my helmet) especially if they have a fully enclosed car. That means, like Aaron stated last night, that if a car is upside down and a driver is allowed to move even a little they will be stopped by their helmet hitting the roll bar or in a worse case hitting the pavement. Either way they will injure their neck, hit their head on the pavement and cause a concussion even with a helmet. One of our teachers in the NW rolled his car and hit his head sideways before the roll bar rule was changed to what it is now and he was knocked out and he was wearing an approved helmet! 3) Since many students do not like to wear their seat belts tight (like their pants) as it is uncomfortable they are more prone to move around when they do have wreck. If their shoulder belts are a little loose and attached above the shoulders they will move several inches toward the roll bar as they are upside down. With the shoulder belts mounted below the shoulders they will only move half of the length of the 'slack' which should be less than an inch total so they hopefully are stopped by their shoulder harness and not the roll bar/ground as they roll over. One of two major wrecks (red flags) I have seen in my 19 year and hundreds of races was when a student had his seat belts all a 'little' loose for comfort. His steering broke and he hit a tall curb at about 30 mph. Just like a gun that is not held against your shoulder when fired his momentum let him fly forward and was stopped by the seat belts after moving a couple of inches. He was taken to the hospital in an ambulance with slight internal bruising. I alway stress tightening seat belts with my students and use this as an example and still when I go around a talk to my students before a race I sometimes find seat belts loose and have to make my students tighten them up.
As far as using the top of the tires I agree with you. I have always told my students that the tires are not what counts. I have my students (an myself) put in some sort of structural 'roll bar' above their legs/knees to be safe--I admit some sneak by, but most of my students have a roll bar that comes over their head so they are OK I feel. I like a 'leg roll bar' because with a stubbed axle on the front tires it they hit a curb on a corner there is a very good chance the axle will break or at least bend and not be there to support the fount of the car in a roll over. This is something that was talked about a few years ago and I was voted down on my suggestion as many of the cars (especially the high speed ones) want a very low and sleek car body for aerodynamics and don't want to have the body higher than the top of the wheels. Like a said if a well made roll bar extends out in front of the helmets then I feel that they are safe.
Mike
Nicodemus Brothers said
Apr 10, 2013
This is a mess.
1.) Good! The new form looks much better. I appreciate that there's more than 2 driver information areas.
3.) Oh, please don't do this. The open class teams in our area will kick our collective butt, haha. Let car turnout determine what classes there should be. If 1 college team shows up, sure, lump them together. But if we have 3 or 4 of each, let them have their own classes. Leave it to the discretion of the race steward/event organizer/authority person. Hillsborough Commmunity College casts its ballot against this change.
4.) This rule seems sensible but extreme/unclear. The only part that bugs me is where it says "Texting is banned whenever the driver is physically in the car." Really? ANY time? Even before the race, sitting in the pit? Some clarification needed here.
5.) I agree with what ProEV said. The main point of this rule is to stop cars from popping tires and digging into the track, coming to a quick stop that drivers behind you can't react to quickly enough. If you enforce a new rule for a stock ground clearance, you shouldn't get rid of the old one.
8.) Is this rule serious? Did someone put a big pointy spike on the front of their car or something? This is ridiculous, haha. Any kind of test to "pass or fail" cars is going to end up disqualifying perfectly safe cars. Just have a "no spikes/blades/chainsaws on the front of your car" rule. I really doubt any reasonably well built car would be pierced by a somewhat pointy shaped nose.
2, 9-12.) Perfectly reasonable, sounds fine.
-- Edited by Nicodemus Brothers on Wednesday 10th of April 2013 09:52:38 AM
Ron said
May 12, 2013
While I like the "6 inch diameter hemisphere" idea it seams to cause confusion (I don't know why) maybe we should just make a simple statement of dimension at a fixed distance (very minimally) from the end of the car.... and maybe make a "jig" (like the 1.5x1.5 stick we use in the NW for ground clearance) like a 6 inch diameter ring and if more than a certain amount of the nose of any car protrudes through the ring...like say 6 inches (which a 6 in hemisphere would be the greatest distance protruding) it would not pass.. this would seem to keep us from "banning" too many existing cars.... although I can think of several that would have difficulty on 2 or 3 teams and have to be modified to be able to pass.
Plus at the speeds we attain (even on the longer tracks like "back east") the aerodynamics just do not call for a long pointed nose..... I mean look at a boeing 737, 747, or 777.. these aircraft fly at 8/10 of a mach (close to 600mph) and they have a pretty blunt nose... the "pointy nose" we all equate with "fast" is not needed til you break mach 1 (over 700mph) somehow I just don't think we are going to attain these speeds during a race....
1. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Page 39. Add the NW inspection sheet to the handbook and eliminate the one in there. Add a place (big letters) for the battery class they are in to the NW inspection sheet as well.
-see attachment which is the NW inspection sheet
2. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Enforce number visibility more and offer purchasing option for numbers. We can offer three 6 high black numbers on a white block background for $5.00 each letters can be purchased at $2.00 each (these are a bit more, but letters are not sanctioned except for state designation when racing outside of your region which rarely occurs)
-This has been a complaint over the years by timers, flaggers, etc. By offering members the option of purchasing the basic numbers already specified in our rule book (Rule 16: Have uniform easy to see numbers that are standard.) we hope to avoid future problems and enable inspectors to enforce more rigorously on this issue. This is a cheap alternative option not a requirement to buy or a template that needs to be replicated exactly. All cars just need 6 easily readable numbers on a contrasting background.
3. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Do away with college class and join universities to adult/open class. Only student (HS) and open classes with corresponding battery divisions so four less classes to maintain at races. Rule listing on Page 12.
-When the club began the university students were no more prepared for building and racing cars than high school students. With the growing interest in electronic vehicles coupled with many graduating seniors having participated during high school this is no longer the case. To ensure high school students especially those just beginning in this field not to be at a disadvantage when racing we want to change having college students listed with high school students. Also to cut down on the number of classes being run without reducing battery classes we want to join them with adults in open class so race days arent as long. The battery classes are: standard batteries, solar panels standard batteries, experimental batteries, solar with experimental batteries
4. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Adding a communication ruling as too many kids are on the phone including texting while driving in a race. Some options for consideration under this ruling are: (1) Push to talk radios are permitted as long as the driver is not distracted by the action of PTT. (2) Cell phones are permitted only when vehicle is at a stop (such as a breakdown) or when in hands free mode on an open line (no dialing). (3) Texting is banned whenever the driver is physically in the car. (4) Penalty for violation of the above rule is the offending car and drivers immediate removal (disqualification). After 2 violations in same calendar year the driver will be banned from using any electronic form of communication for the rest of the year.
5. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Eliminate rule 10.3 and add ground clearance ruling: The minimum ground clearance is to be judged by the cars ability to roll over a 2x2 board that is milled to be 1 ½ x 1 ½.
-There were reported problems and delays at races where cars took out timing wires at finish lines. There is also a safety consideration as some car designs experienced loss of steering or braking when nose cone was down. This will also provide inspectors and builders with a more uniform tangible device to ensure compliance.
6. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Drop rule 15.4 about the closed loop/open loop so there is not any confusion on rules 15.2 and 15.3 and driver being in control. Closed loop means the pit area could be in control of the power of the car.
-Need to ensure closed loop devices are used for monitoring purposes only not for operation during the race. It is okay to use during practice or in the pits.
7. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): There needs to be wording added to the lap counting section (page 35) allowing/encouraging the use of an electronic counting system.
-It may be easy/simple to hand count a race with only a hand full of cars, but it is a near impossibility to count a 50-car race on a half-mile track with any form of hand count. One system actually broke a tie between two cars in two separate heats that had less than one second between them. This would have been a total impossibility with any form of hand count. Add into that the horrendous errors reported from hand counts and it seems silly that electronic counting is not even recognized, let alone encouraged.
-One proposal is that the club could match in kind on timing systems for each region. This would require a regional housekeeper of the equipment that would be responsible for bringing the equipment to every race in the region. If the race is more than 2 hours away then equipment would need to be there 24 hours prior to race. Running the equipment during the race would also be part of housekeeper duties. If housekeeper is unable to attend then they must provide an instructor on how equipment is to be used/setup/put away/etc. Unsure what to do if multiple races on the same day in a region at this time of proposal but recognize that will be a conflict until we can afford more systems. Also of concern is distance to races within regions, but again this proposal is more to get the ball rolling towards a future of all races having electronic timing.
8. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Add to rule 5 on page 7: The nose area must have a minimum radius of a 3 sphere
-There have been safety concerns with nose cones having the potential for piercing of other vehicles, spectators, or other persons especially during crash scenarios.
9. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Make Rules 3 and 5 a little more clear on what is meant by Bodywork or structural protection from head on and side impact & encloses all of the drivers body parts by changing to BODYWORK OR STRUCTURAL PROTECTION FROM HEAD ON AND SIDE IMPACT AND ENCLOSES ALL OF THE DRIVERS BODY PARTS INCLUDING ARMS/LEGS SO THEY CAN NOT ESCAPE THE VEHICLES PROTECTION IN A ROLLOVER OR ANY OTHER CRASH. SIDEWALL PROTECTIONS NEED TO BE A MINIMUM OF 4 INCHES ABOVE DRIVERS HEAD.
-Safety issues with some car designs that have open noses where pants and shoes are the only protection for the driver. In one instance saw tip of shoe sticking out during the race. Safety issues with drivers head and upper body being protected. In another instance saw a large car with nose cone above sidewalls of another smaller car.
10. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): The meaning of the yellow flag on Page 32 needs to be clarified as to represent an immediate danger and to proceed forward with caution till the danger is driven past. In addition, it will be mandatory for race hosts to designate where flaggers will be located on K and K insurance forms. The flaggers will be numbered 1-X. At the race the flagger in direct line of the accident will radio in their position # and only they and the flagger directly before them will wave yellow flags (no one else on course will wave caution flags unless more than one accident). If a red flag scenario occurs every flagger will wave their red flag.
-This is a concern when everyone is waving a yellow flag as the drivers are unsure exactly where an accident has occurred and if quite a distance away actually speeds up after having driven slowly for so long without seeing anything right where accident is. Having numbered flaggers will also help announcers/spectators/teams/etc know where the incident is actually located.
11. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Electrathon drivers do not need to have a drivers license. They DO need to be 16 years old. There will also need to be a drivers approval systems set up.
-In the NW we have practice lap time before the actual race so we set aside a time for non-licensed drivers to be on the track. We had several teachers watch them for 15 minutes at race speeds and communicated by radio what we saw from each driver as they passed. If there were no problems they were allowed to race. Their care was identified with small flags and they were watched closely for problems with their driving.
12. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Addition of Pre-Race, Race Day, and Post-Race checklist what is listed below is just a basic outline the discussion should be of additional items that would be useful for race hosts or members attending races. Please specify which of the 3 categories the advice should be added to and whether it is more for someone hosting a race or someone going to race.
-see attached forms
Let me know if you're still wanting me to do the number decals.
What is the definition of "3 sphere" ??? I really have no idea, but some rule eliminating front-end points is long over due. OK got it, but it was confusing at first.
-- Edited by bd64 on Thursday 24th of January 2013 12:58:34 PM
RULE #9---The last line should read "ENCLOSES ALL OF THE DRIVERS BODY PARTS INCLUDING ***ARMS/LEGS*** (legs or legs/knees) SO THEY CAN NOT ESCAPE THE VEHICLES PROTECTION IN A ROLLOVER OR ANY OTHER CRASH. SIDEWALL PROTECTIONS NEED TO BE A MINIMUM OF 4 INCHES ABOVE DRIVERS ***HEAD*** (body or belly or ???) Also maybe add in here that when a driver is belted into their car they should not be able to reach out and touch the ground and should have to raise their arms to reach outside of the vehicle. I do not like arm restraint but think that we need to be sure that students can not stick their arms out to try to keep from hitting things or flipping.
Also we need to have the RACE INSPECTION FORM (rule #1) that we are proposing be posted on this site along with the PRE- DURING- POST- RACE FORM (rule 12) posted. That way we can open it up for comments.
Kyle--If this goes through we will in contact with you as we plan on having you make them unless anyone else comes up with a cheaper price.
This is a lot of proposed rule changes to comment on in one sitting, so I am only to try and do half now.
What I find best about the electrathon Of America rule book is it's simplicity, clarity, and brevity. So what I am looking at is:
Are these rules necessary?
Are these rules worded in the clearest simplistic way?
1. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Page 39. Add the NW inspection sheet to the handbook and eliminate the one in there. Add a place (big letters) for the battery class they are in to the NW inspection sheet as well. -see attachment which is the NW inspection sheet
This seems simple and clear but where is the actual document?
2. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Enforce number visibility more and offer purchasing option for numbers. We can offer three 6 high black numbers on a white block background for $5.00 each letters can be purchased at $2.00 each (these are a bit more, but letters are not sanctioned except for state designation when racing outside of your region which rarely occurs) -This has been a complaint over the years by timers, flaggers, etc. By offering members the option of purchasing the basic numbers already specified in our rule book (Rule 16: Have uniform easy to see numbers that are standard.) we hope to avoid future problems and enable inspectors to enforce more rigorously on this issue. This is a cheap alternative option not a requirement to buy or a template that needs to be replicated exactly. All cars just need 6 easily readable numbers on a contrasting background.
Is this a rule change? The rules on numbers seem to be clear and unambiguous.
'Enforce number visibility more' ? ' Should Electrathon Of America offer number stickers for sale ?' seems more of a board question than a rule book issue.
3. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Do away with college class and join universities to adult/open class. Only student (HS) and open classes with corresponding battery divisions so four less classes to maintain at races. Rule listing on Page 12. -When the club began the university students were no more prepared for building and racing cars than high school students. With the growing interest in electronic vehicles coupled with many graduating seniors having participated during high school this is no longer the case. To ensure high school students especially those just beginning in this field not to be at a disadvantage when racing we want to change having college students listed with high school students. Also to cut down on the number of classes being run without reducing battery classes we want to join them with adults in open class so race days arent as long. The battery classes are: standard batteries, solar panels standard batteries, experimental batteries, solar with experimental batteries
Page 29 of the handbook would be the section that would require modification. It defines each division- HS, College, Open and Define your own and each class-Standard, Solar and Advanced Battery.
It is not 100% clear to me whether an event organizer is required to sanction a division if three or more enter that division. I kind of read it as the organizer is not required to run a College division if they do not want to.
I suppose if the College division was removed, organizers could still use the 'define your own' clause to create a College division if they want it.
My temptation would be to clean up the wording to make it clear that the event organizer does not need to run a separate division if they choose not to and let each event decide whether they want to run a college class or not.
4. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Adding a communication ruling as too many kids are on the phone including texting while driving in a race. Some options for consideration under this ruling are: (1) Push to talk radios are permitted as long as the driver is not distracted by the action of PTT. (2) Cell phones are permitted only when vehicle is at a stop (such as a breakdown) or when in hands free mode on an open line (no dialing). (3) Texting is banned whenever the driver is physically in the car. (4) Penalty for violation of the above rule is the offending car and drivers immediate removal (disqualification). After 2 violations in same calendar year the driver will be banned from using any electronic form of communication for the rest of the year.
Do we care if someone texts, dials or chats while driving. Not specifically. What we care about is whether their behavior impacts other race vehicles. Page 34 clearly states 'failure to remain aware of the surround vehicles as evidenced by repeatedly cutting off...'
If the race steward see unsafe behavior he has the right and responsibility to pull that driver over for a little 'chat'.
5. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Eliminate rule 10.3 and add ground clearance ruling: The minimum ground clearance is to be judged by the cars ability to roll over a 2x2 board that is milled to be 1 ½ x 1 ½. -There were reported problems and delays at races where cars took out timing wires at finish lines. There is also a safety consideration as some car designs experienced loss of steering or braking when nose cone was down. This will also provide inspectors and builders with a more uniform tangible device to ensure compliance.
I think the concern addressed by 10.3 is the danger that a tire might come off the rim at speed and the lowest point of the vehicle dig in and cause a flip. Different tires have different side wall heights. For example, if you have a tire with a three inch side wall, an inch and a half ride height will not help you. I think 10.3 is more effective than setting a stock ride height.
6. PROPOSED CHANGE (1/18/13): Drop rule 15.4 about the closed loop/open loop so there is not any confusion on rules 15.2 and 15.3 and driver being in control. Closed loop means the pit area could be in control of the power of the car. -Need to ensure closed loop devices are used for monitoring purposes only not for operation during the race. It is okay to use during practice or in the pits.
If it is legal for, say, a computer to control the magnitude of the power as long as the driver controls the ON/OFF, then 15.4 needs to be there. This does not authorize the pits to control the vehicle because that would violate 15.3.
We hoped that each of these proposals would be in their own forum and then it would be easier to follow those threads but that did not work out that way. We also hoped to get the proposed inspection form up on the forum for comments. Neither of those happened. As president over the years I have to admit that I have gotten fairly discouraged on getting anything to happen nation wide. There seems to be a lot of "we will do what we want in our area and not worry or give input to the rest of the EA group. And as the old saying goes if you want something done do it yourself. I don't have the energy or time to do EVERYTHING by myself.
When Aimee and I sat down a few weeks back and put together all of the proposals from the members forum along with things people had emailed me about this is what we came up with. We did toss out some that were complete changes to the EA system like human/electric hybreds, letting electric motor cycles race, etc. I agree that many of these rules only need to be enforced at the event. The problem is that many team interpret the rules differently since the rules are simple and brief and mostly clear. This was an attempt on some rules to add a little more clarity. We have many teams that come to races with things outside the letter of the law but argue that they do not violate the written rule and there fore should be allowed.
REASONING BEHIND SOME RULES:
1) This sheet is more specific and is carried from race to race with inspectors notes. So if in race #1 the inspector says 'you can race in this race but by the next have the chain guard improved by doing ...' the next inspector can see that this was addressed and not let the car race in the second unless it was totally corrected. In many areas we have different inspectors at each race.
2) Again we let cars race with black numbers on a blue background because we don't want to tell them they can't race after all they have done. The wording on this just says that we will enforce this rule and if they don't want to paint their car/number in contrasting numbers they can buy white on black decals
3) Again there are too many classes and the feeling of many is that if 3 or more teams in a class show up they should have their own class. In the NW we don't have any solar cars but due have experimental batteries. With as many as 4 classes in each of the groups we felt, with the reasons given (not exact wording I would use but??) that the college class fit very well into the open class. Most colleges have an engineer instructor and more resources (sponsors, tools, etc.) than most open but then colleges over engineer to make them too cool and most (at least in the NW) don't do any better than the average open cars.
4) This is like using a cell phone when driving a regular car. We all knew that if I text or dial or even talked while driving I many not be in total control but still did it. Now that many states give out huge tickets for that many less drivers are using hand on phones. The same we hope is true for EA drivers. We used to have a number of students texting, etc. and since we start each race with the penalties mentioned and have each flagger looking for it there have been very few problems with it.
5) This one is end confusion and make it easy to check during inspections. I agree if totally enforce the sidewall rule may be better but the quick glance that I see most inspectors give about ground clearance and side walls does not catch many cars that are too low. With timing grids becoming more common the height is more important so that they don't cause a race to be stopped while repairs to the grid wires on the track are fixed.
6) I don't think that some one in the pits should be able to directly control anything in the car while it is motion. They can monitor and relay information to the driver and they can adjust their driving as needed. I think that this is dangerous as the pits don't know what is happening out on the track and also it is against the spirit of EA in that this is to a driver's race and not a computer.
7) This is just a suggestion that was put out and in the NW where we have as many as 72 cars show up for a race any type of hand counting was a joke and since we have gone to electronic lap counting things have been much better.
8) Again the rule say can not have any sharp parts that can penetrate another car many did not see that a sharp point on the nose violated this. I think this happens more in areas with high speed tracks like 2 mile Nascar ovals.
9) Again just trying to make the wording more clear so cars are built safe. We see many cars with kids knees sticking up in the air or the side of the body well below the waist line. If a car flipped the knees would be gone, and in a crash the drivers arms automatically stick out to try to 'stop' the other car and will be broken. If a T-bone crash the low car can be driven over and if not protected vital organs can be damaged.
10) At some race it there is a stopped car anywhere on the track then all of the corners will start waving their flags. After a few of these the drivers are like in the boy who called wolf and ignore a flag that is a real caution and cause more wrecks. This is again just a clarification to make sure that flaggers (race organizers) use the yellow flags correctly.
11) As it states in the explanation for this there are areas where kids can not get licenses while in high school, either age is 17 or for financial reason. These kids, if they are capable of driving well and safely, should be able to drive
12) This is just something that Aimee wanted to see added to the handbook to since so many race officials are having trouble doing the things needed to run a race. She and I thought that this would help them get things done on time and be aware of what all they needed to do.
AGAIN SO FAR THIS POST HAS BEEN UP FOR 9 DAYS AND YOU ARE THE FIRST PERSON TO ADD ANY INPUT OR SUGGESTIONS OR COMMENTS ON THE ACTUAL RULE PROPOSALS. WE WANTED TO END ALL COMMENTS BY THE 28th WHICH IS TOMORROW AND THEN MEMBERS COULD VOTE ON THE ISSUES. WE ALSO HOPEFULLY HAVE A BOARD MEETING SCHEDULED FOR NEXT WEEK SO THE BOARD CAN VOTE ON THESE ISSUES AND WE CAN TRY TO GET AN UPDATED HANDBOOK DESIGNED, PRINTED, AND MAILED OFF BY THE END OF FEBRUARY. As a president I am supposed to be in charge of the organization but without others I don't have the time to do all of this by myself!!!!
I like the new rule proposals. And the one about the remote control feature is just a bad idea waiting to happen if someone was to actually do that (which as far as I know no one has ever done that sort of thing.) I can see the advantage if a team could see and relay info to its driver about if they need to speed up or slow down, but not remotley control the car.
My opinion about the communication rule is that it's up to the driver if they choose to use it or not. Definitely no texting whats so ever since your physically taking your eyes off the road, and the wheel as a matter of fact. If your pulled over, say your car broke down and your out of the car, then sure texting is totally fine. I've seen so many people on the actual road texting while driving and either they speed up or slow down. I wouldn't want someone getting into an accident at an electrthon race going either 10mph or 70mph when texting. You need to be totally focused when driving and do your thing when out on the track. Save it, if you need to get a hold of someone during a race, then have an open line where your hands free. Just take responsibility when using an open line.
The inspection sheet used in the NW is more understanding than having a car looked over for 15 minutes with the sheet provided in the book. I would strongly encourage the one used in the NW since it is much simpler. I did do inspections at the Lane Community College race last year for the first time and it went very smoothly. I thought it was going to be difficult; turns out it wasn't.
That's what I have to say about the new rule propsals. Certian things just need to be added, tweaked, or deleted out of the current rules.
Zaine
THINGS TO DO TO HOST A RACE
PRE-RACE DAY ITEMS-
FIND A LOCATION FOR YOUR RACE.
This can be a parking lot or actual trackdetermine cost which is often free for parking lots
be sure that there is enough room to set up a track at least 1/4 mile long and 20 feet wide
there needs to be enough space for pits for all teams along with inspection and other official areas
ideally there are electrical outlets available and restroom, water, and food available.
The track needs to be able to be secured from spectators and motor traffic crossing during the race
decide what you use to mark the track layout and to avoid collisions from opposing directions
Figure out where spectators will observe the race and how to secure it.
FIND SPONSOR (NOT REQUIRED BUT CAN GREATLY HELP WITH COSTS)
They can help pay insurance and other fees----If you can obtain then race entrance fees may be $0.00
OBTAIN INSURANCE--at least 5 weeks before race
Contact Electrathon AmericaAimee Hart
CONTACT ALL CURRENT LOCAL RACERS ABOUT RACE AND GET ON E.A. CALANDAR
Have firm times, etc. for all aspects of the day.
Fill out the form on the EA web site and submit to have your event sanctioned.
Get your event on the EA web site calendar and be sure all data is correct well before actual race.
Sending out a flyer to all local racers is a great idea and increases turnout.
RACE DAY ITEMS-
SET UP TRACK--do this very early in day or the day before if possible/
Set barriers up using tires, hay bales, or other barriers to stop vehicles from leaving the track.
Get and set up snow fence or other crowd control.
Get cones or something to make track more visible to drivers and set them up for actual track.
Get flags for racegreen, red, black, checkered and several yellow caution flags for corners.
Get any signs / banners etc. that you may want for the race.
INSPECTIONS--try to get at least 3 to 6 helpers with at least one with experience with Electrathons
Inspect all new cars completely using appropriate inspection sheets
See check off sheet in handbook
Look over all pre-inspected vehicles if part of a race series to be sure still safe
Look at inspection sheet from 1st race to see notes etc. (these should travel from race to race)
Ask about changes since last race and note on inspection sheet
Look to see if things still looks OK if not inspect that area as if new
Check license of drivers
Check to be sure Electrathon America Registration is OK
Weigh batteries--73 pounds or less unless on the OK list if they are lead acid. If experimental class then the handbook listed weights for each type of battery.
Weigh drivers--180 pounds or more with ballast
DRIVER MEETING--before race after cars are inspected
Discuss items you want to stressthis is for fun not Indy 500 etc.
Remind drivers there is no bumping and proper passing techniques
Point out narrow or more challenging dangerous parts of course
Go over flags and what they mean
CONTACT LOCAL NEWS
Contact local TV, newspapers, and radio. Draws a crowd and makes the race more exciting along with helps with sponsorship in the future
SET UP LAP COUNTING--what ever method your area has come up with
Some areas have a counter for each 4-6 cars and one person calling all the cars numbers as they pass
In these there is usually another person writing down the numbers sequencially as the pass
Other area have people from each team do thisoften one counts another teams car and one
observes their own car being counted by another teams member
Some areas are using an automatic transponder system to count laps
DIVIDE CARS INTO HEATS AND ORGANIZE STARTING LINEUP
Decide how many cars can compete on your track safely. If you have more cars than this you will
need to have more than one heat.
Dividing into heats can be done several ways some designate open and high school heats or novice and
experienced or divide vehicles up by money expended in construction into different heats
Starting lineup can be done several ways also, some use order of inspection, others use past race
results, and others just have cars line up as they arrive on the starting grid as first come first served
HAVE CORNER MARSHALS
You will need one at the beginning of each corner since drivers will not see around the corner.
Also place one at any location that you deem could be dangerous or likely to have wrecks
Be sure they understand yellow flags and to use them only if danger in their area just after curve or a
REAL need to slow down to avoid dangerous situation. Dont have them yell Wolf too often
or they will be ignored
START RACE HEATS ON TIME
Other wise it gets worse and further behind as the day goes and no one wants races to go until dark
POST-RACE DAY ITEMS-
FIGURE WINNERS AND ANNOUNCE PLACES FOR EACH ASAP
If possible try to list all finishers and the number of laps they completed and their finish order ASAP
If trophies etc. are being given out hand them out as soon as possible after the race
If you are giving lap money, find the total number of laps in the race let racers know how much
money per lap will be given out
Send out the lap money within a week if possible, this will make teams feeling the race was
organized and they will want to come back.
CLEAN UP ALL BARRIERS AND SNOW FENCE AND THE TRACK, PIT, AND PARKING AREA
This will help in having more races at this location
Send thank you notes, tax write offs, etc. to location owners and any sponsors
WRITE AN ARTICLE ABOUT THE EVENT WITH THE RESULTS
Send both to Electrathon America for the Web and the newsletter again try to do this within a week
You might also want to send an article to the local newspaper as it might make the paper.
ELECTRATHON ENTRY INSPECTION CHECK LIST
OWNERS NAME/SCHOOL _____________________________________________________________________________________
VEHICLES NUMBER/STATE ____________________ HIGH SCHOOL _______ COLLEGE _______ OPEN ________
BATTERY CLASS: LEAD ACID ______ --OR-- EXPIREMENTAL ______ TYPE ____________________________ SYSTEM VOTAGE _____________ BATTERY QUANTITY __________________ SOLAR CLASS YES / NO
PROOF OF ELECTRATHON AMERICA COMPETITOR MEMBERSHIP (CARD OR LIST) _______________
VEHICLE
_____ Electrathon America vehicle number clearly visible (6+ high and contrasting color)
_____Visual inspection of structural integrity appears good
_____Overall car no more that 48 (4) wide at widest point and 12 feet long or less
_____Roll bar seems able to support drivers weight--bracing at highest point
_____Roll bar protects driver through full range of motion side to side and forward
_____If roll bar is not one piece, it is triangulated at all joints
_____Driver stays under plane (roll bar to front support) when seat belted in and leans forward
_____Tires are pneumatic and tread is in acceptable condition
_____Ground clearance is so that if any or all tires are flat the car is still off of the ground (1 1/2)
_____Bottom pan so that driver cannot make contact with the track and protects driver from ground
_____Bodywork or structural protection from head on and side impact & encloses all of the drivers body parts including legs/feet so they can not escape the cars protection. Sides high enough that if other cars go over it in a wreck the driver is not hurt
_____No exposed sharp edges or components. Nose cone not overly pointed or sharp.
_____Chain and motor area has guard to protect the driver and others
_____Good visibility and field of vision- checked with clipboard held in several locations
_____Rear view mirror(s) at least 8 square inches-can see clearly on both sides of the vehicle.
_____Axle diameter at least 12 mm / 1/2 unless supported on both ends
_____Cotter pins or safety wire used to secure cantilevered wheel axle nutsnot just lock or jam nuts
_____5 point seat belt system is as per rulebooksecurely attached at least 3 below body parts, can lift the weight of the vehicle. Holds the driver secure and immobile.
_____Brake inspection-Car will not roll when pushed from behind (skids or stationary) and has two wheels on the same axle with brakes.
_____Steering inspection-Can make 25 foot turning radius and appears safe and stable at high speeds
_____Throttle automatically shuts off when released
_____Circuit breaker or fuse between batteries and motor of correct size for wiring gauge and length
_____Inside kill Switch driver accessible and the outside kill switch has a 4 red triangle & easy to use
_____Wiring appears safe (terminals tight, insulation good, frame not grounded, wires not rubbing, etc.)
_____Batteries securely mounted to structural part of car so they cannot come loose in an accident
_____If lead acid batteries-- weigh less than 73 pounds and are non-leakable standard acid batteries
Battery manufacture and model (or serial) number __________________________________________________
_____If experimental batteriestype is approved in handbook and appropriate weight for type
INITIAL INSPECTORS COMMENTS OR RECOMMENDATIONS: ______________________________________________ ______________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
DRIVERS INSPECTED AT EACH RACE AND CARS CHECKED AGAIN
1st EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
2nd EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
3rd EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
4th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
5th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
DRIVERS INSPECTED AT EACH RACE AND CARS CHECKED AGAIN
Page 2
6th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
7th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
8th EVENT INSPECTED _____________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
9th EVENT INSPECTED AT ________________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
10th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
DRIVERS INSPECTED AT EACH RACE AND CARS CHECKED AGAIN
Page 3
11th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
12th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
13th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
14th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
15th EVENT INSPECTED AT _______________________________________________________________DATE__________________ CAR OK __________
DRIVERS NAME _________________________________________________________ DL # ____________________________________STATE______________
_____________Total Weight _________Drivers weight _________Ballast weightitem used __________________________________________
_____Can exit car in less than 20 sec.: _____ Signed liability release form AND minor form signed by guardian if under 18
_____ Hair cannot reach drive trainnecklaces, bracelets, large earrings, etc. removed: _____ Good visibility:
_____Stays under roll bar: _____ Full DOT helmet: _____Eye protection: _____ Long pants & sleeves: _____Gloves (open car only)
INSPECTORS NAME __________________________________COMMENTS/RECOMMENDATIONS: ________________________________________
_____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
I could not figure out how to attach the two forms more cleanly (I am only partially computer literate) so I had to just paste them in.
Personally I am in favor of the above changes, some are a long time comming and it will make a lot of the events simpler. When you are running a race and have to inspect 50 cars in 45 minutes or less it can be a very dificult task. You have differant inspectors who all are looking at the car differantly, so simplification is a great tool (liek the 2x2 rule, fast and simple).
Texting and phone use: Yes, it happens. The kid I caught taxting swore he has not a hazerd, yet I had parents, teachers and corner marshals all report his eratic driving to me. That is just one example. I am in favor of comunication to the track. Durring many races I have had numerous corner marshals who refused to even use their radios, let alone tell me what bad was happening on the track. I often times get the best info from our own drivers warning us about the dangers on the track (drivers, debris, spectators and etc). So we need comunication, it just needs to be safe.
If you have ever tried to count a race the visible number issue would make sence. Many of the numbers are nearly not visible at all, some can be seen from 100' away. try counting 12 cars in eight second as the pass in fromt of you and you will understand.
Aaron
I agree that it would be a lot easier to comment if the rules were split into different threads. It gets really confusing as one big list.
I also think many of the rule change proposals are ideas and need to be refined into specific wordings before they can be voted on and implemented.
Posting them on the forum and having people comment seems the right way to do that but because this is not a high traffic forum, it looks like it needs to be a longer time for people to see the proposals.
I would not get too stressed over it. The rule book as it stands is quite good. These seem to be just minor tweaks.
What about just change the date on the front page of the current manual and aim at making changes next year? I do not think there is any reason to make paper copies of the manual. The electronic version is great. If anyone wants a paper version, they can print it out themselves. This will also save the organization money.
Quick note: The 4th Annual Georgia " Run for the Peaches" is May 11, 2013. Will be sending in paperwork shortly.
rule 8, if pass ,will rule out more then 95% of all the cars we have now. and do noting for safety. David Cloud
Dave,
I can only think of a few cars that would not pass this standard. Your cars should pass easily. The radius may fail in one direction but would pass in the other. It would excede the minimum raduis test by rating it the other direction.
Aaron
Change #2: Numbers - The rule is clear enough as it is. Teams should simply be told if the scorers and officials can't see your number your car will not be scored! If the board or someone wants to offer numbers for sale, that's fine, but it doesn't require a rules change.
Change #3: Do away with college / university class - This change is unnecessary. The rulebook already allows for the consolidation of classes at the race organizers' discretion. Also, if there are several colleges in a region, they or the race organizers may wish to have them compete directly with each other without diluting the class.
Change #4: Communication - I like these proposed changes. I am absolutely against texting while driving ANYTHING.
Change #5: Ground clearance - The National Street Rod Association has a vehicle safety inspection rule that refers to the "Scrub Line". This is an imaginary line or plane formed by the bottoms of the rims of any vehicle (In other words, it is the bottoms of the rims without tires). Nothing is allowed to protrude below this line or plane. That way if one or all tires are flat, the vehicle can still be pushed or towed without dragging or digging into the road surface. Rule 10.3 sort of defines this already. Maybe it needs to be clarified AND have a minimum ground clearance added to rule 10. Any car that does not have the minimum 1.5 inch ground clearance or has any part below the "scrub line" will not be allowed to compete.
Change #6: Closed loop/open loop - I agree with this change. It is confusing as written. Also, remote control cars belong on the local R/C track, not in Electrathon. Drivers need to DRIVE!
Change #7: Lap counting - No objections here.
Change #8: This rule (Rule # 5, page 7) simply needs clarification, possibly some rewriting or additions. The proposal is to add a sub-rule specifying the minimum radius of a 3-inch sphere. First, I thought a 3-inch sphere was about the size of a baseball; apparently it means a 6-inch diameter... What about a pointed nose if it's made of styrofoam? What about a nose that has the required shape as viewed from above, but is knife-edged when viewed from the side?
Change #9: Rules 3 and 5 are pretty well written as is except as noted in proposed change #8 above. I don't understand what is meant by "SIDEWALL PROTECTIONS NEED TO BE A MINIMUM OF 4 INCHES ABOVE DRIVERS HEAD". Does this mean I'll be strapping big sheets of plywood to the sides of my cars that protrude above the roll cage? Wow, my peripheral vision is going to be severely impaired... Clarification is definitely needed here.
Change #10: Meaning of the yellow flag - I agree clarification is needed; no objections.
Change #11: Drivers - Agree. As long as there is no problem with the insurance carrier, driver qualification could be left up to the race organizers.
Aaron,my mistake. I thought,( sphere)meant two directions. David Cloud
or (all)directions. not one or two . David
I KNOW THAT SOME OF THE RULES ARE NOT WORDED CORRECTLY AND I HAVE ADDED A COUPLE OF TRIES AT EXPLAINING THEM....LIKE THE ONE ABOUT SIDE CRASH HEIGHT....AS I SAID IN A CLARIFICATION IT WAS TO BE ABOVE THE WAIST NOT HEAD!!!!!!!. PLEASE READ ALL OF THE OTHER MEMBERS COMMENTS **BEFORE*** YOU ENTER YOURS. SOME OF THE QUESTIONS BEING RAISED ARE ANSWERED IN OTHERS COMMENTS.
NEARLY ALL OF THESE RULES ARE ONES THAT WERE ON THE FORUM FOR THE LAST YEAR OR MORE AND I AM JUST PASSING ALONG THOUGHTS AND TRYING TO GET THINGS FIGURED OUT!!!!
I AGREE WITH "PRO-EV" AND I THINK THIS MAY BE HAPPENING TOO LATE TO MAKE CHANGES NOW....IF WE AS AN ORGANIZATION CAN GET OURSELVES TOGETHER ENOUGH TO ACTUALLY MAKE DECISIONS AND COME UP WITH FIRM ITEMS FOR A NEW BOOK I WOULD LIKE US TO USE THE CURRENT BOOK FOR THIS YEAR BUT POST THE THINGS THAT ARE CHANGING FOR NEXT YEAR'S BOOK AND THEN GET THAT ONE PRINTED AND READY TO SEND OUT IN 2014. WE HAVE DONE THIS IN THE PAST SO THAT TEAMS HAVE TIME TO MODIFY THEIR VEHICLES AND FIGURE OUT HOW BEST TO ACCOMPLISH WHAT IS NEEDED SO ALL ARE SAFE AND FOLLOW THE RULES.
AS PRESIDENT, IT IS MY FAULT THAT WE HAVE NOT HAD A NEW BOOK SINCE THESE RULES CAME OUT IN 2010. IN THE SPRING OF 2011, SOMEONE ELSE VOLUNTEERED TO GET RULE PROPOSALS TOGETHER AND VOTED ON AND THIS PERSON DID NOT GET IT TOGETHER AND SO THIS NEVER HAPPENED. LAST SPRING, 2012, I SAID I WAS GOING TO IT AGAIN LIKE I DID TO GET THE LAST BOOK WRITTEN IN 2009. I SENT OUT A REQUEST TO THE BOARD AND NOT ONE OF THEM REPLIED...I REMEMBERED HOW FRUSTRATED I WAS IN 2009 AND I DROPPED IT AND DECIDED TO JUST, LIKE EVERYONE ELSE, JUST DO OUR OWN THING IN THE NORTHWEST. AMIEE RIGHTLY CONVINCE ME A COULE OF WEEKS AGO THIS WAS NOT THE WAY TO HANDLE IT. SO THE TWO OF US SAT DOWN AND I GAVE HER A LIST OF THE PROPOSALS THAT EVERYONE HAD SENT IN TO THE FORUM OR TO DIRECTLY ME. WE WENT OVER THEM AND THEN SHE SENT THE LIST TO AARON TO POST ON THE FORUM. A COUPLE, LIKE THE SIDE CRASH PROTECTION BEING 4" ABOVE THE HEAD AND NOT THE WAIST, WERE INTERPRETED WRONG....FOR THAT I WILL AGAIN TAKE THE BLAME AS I SHOULD HAVE DONE IT MYSELF, AARON WAS KIND ENOUGH TO ADD EVERYTHING TO THE FORUM SO THAT ALL MEMBERS COULD SEE IT AND MAKE COMMENTS. HE DID THIS TO THE BEST OF HIS ABILITY AND MUCH BETTER THAN MY ABILITY WOULD HAVE ALLOWED ME TO DO. IF ANYONE WANTS TO VOLUNTEER TO TAKE OVER ANY OF THESE NON PAID JOBS I'M SURE NONE OF US THAT ARE TRYING TO GET THINGS DONE WOULD BE UPSET TO GIVE THE REINS OVER..... I WOULD REALLY LIKE CONSTRUCTIVE COMMENTS AND IDEAS, BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE, SO WE CAN FIGURE IT OUT. IT WOULD BE GREAT IF THESE COMMENTS CAME WITH SUGGESTION AS TO HOW TO WORD THE RULES BETTER. THIS IS THE ONLY WAS I CN SEE THAT WE ARE GOING TO PUT THIS TOGETHER AND KEEP THE NATIONAL ORGANIZATION RUNNING!!!!!!
NOSE CONE PROPOSED CHANGE*********
Dave and Aaron. Yes the 3" radius 6" diameter sphere nose cone was to be in all directions. I measured the Destiny body in our shop and at 3" back from the tip it is 7" across so it is larger than a 6" DIAMETER sphere in all directions. I will have to measure my Wolverine face nose cone and see if it qualifies or if I will need to modify it if this rule passes. Again this was a rule on the forum for the last year with little input!!!!
As far as a balloon attached to the nose....I agree that the letter of this rule would allow that but that is obviously not what was meant. So the wording needs to be improved. We want a structural part of the car that has this size or larger. As far as a sharper nose being better for aerodynamics any wind tunnel test will show that you want a slightly rounded nose cone not a pointed one unless you are near supersonic speeds. A pointed nose caused a wider bow wave and more drag at the speeds we are traveling than a slightly rounded one. Fiberglass is not necessarily flimsy as stated above. I have seen a well built sturdy nose hit a post head on at ~30 and only slightly crack when the metal hoop inside it was 3" further inside and the fiberglass nose cone by itself is what stopped the car. So a very pointed fiberglass nose could take our ribs, kidneys, etc. in a T-bone crash. To test this rule I would propose that we find some round bowls or ??? that are about 3" deep and 6" across. If we put them over the nose cone, does the bowl touch the car at the bowl's rim (top) or is the nose cone too pointed and it touches the bottom of the bowl and keep the rim from touching the sides. If this part does not make sense let me know and I will try to do a better job of explained this testing method.
Mike Hodgert--president by default of Electrathon America.
If the radius is in BOTH/ALL directions I have to agree with Dave, virtually all cars in the US will have to be altered. None of our cars will pass and none of the new cars we have built this year will pass. A flat bottomed car with a very large (12") radius upwards and 18" raduis nose side to side will fail this standard.
A bowl could not be used to test because the one side being greater than the other would stop it. You would have to use a flat guage and test it in multiple directions. I feel that a 12" tall nose with a 3" diamiter side to side (think Cloud car) is less likely to punch into a car than a car with a 6" ball nose on it.
By your description I am oposed to this change.
Aaron -lap counter and forum administrator by default
NO , the bowl will not work. if the top view is like (>).David
In my opinion you do not need both rule 8 and rule 9, only rule 9. If a car has adequate sidewall protection, then car's piercing each other should not be an issue. I would think it would be easier to put a little more structure in the sidewall than having to re do the entire front end of the car.
Also since we're talking safety, maybe there should be an inspection for weld quality/ fabrication techniques specifically for the roll cage. I've seen quite a few roll bars that look like they would fold in if they were actually in a roll over. Or maybe better enforcing that the bar must be above one's head ( have seen a couple cars with heads above the bar). I admit the weld inspection may be going a bit far for mostly high school students, but I do welding/fab for a job so I am more critical of those things.
Mike
What is the definition of "3 sphere" ??? I really have no idea, but some rule eliminating front-end points is long over due. O
This is the type of construction Rule *8 is trying to address. Fortunately, these vehicles are no longer in existance and I hpoe no others like them will ever be made.
This is Nebraska's version of frontal impact protection
"
Impact Protection
Each vehicle shall have structural members at the front of the vehicle that act as a barrier, or bumper, to protect the feet of the driver and to help prevent intrusion into another vehicle in the event of contact. The minimum dimension of these structural members shall be eight (8) inches in the horizontal and eight (8) inches in the vertical dimensions. Blunt aerodynamic fairings may be used in front of the structural members to enhance airflow. The barrier must be made of materials that meet the minimum standards for frame components. This rule applies to vehicles with a single front steer wheel as well."
Mike, I do agree,we need a new rule for this. but this is not working.what is behind,the nose cone? Shannon new car 3" back 4.2".call me David Cloud 425-788-9293.
Mike
Mike, So we can have a 6"d flat with a 2.9 spike or (bd64)sticking out of a beach 2". But not a 16" hookworm leading the way. David
beach ball
Mike
Not stupid but here's my suggestion:
Rounded noses: The radius of the nose shall be no less than 3" in any direction. (This would include the distance from the tip)
Flat noses: The height and width of the nose shall be no less than 5.25 " (Approx area of the 3" radius)
Pointed Noses: The sharpest angle in any direction shall be no less than 45 (or 60 or whatever) degrees. (Note The Robinson's/meangreen's nose)
Trying to avoid a one size fits all solution.
-- Edited by Mike Frederick on Friday 1st of February 2013 02:59:49 PM
Taylor jo
The structural part (rigid fiberglass, or metal bracing, or ??) of the nose cone's very tip must be flat or rounded in shape and the front area must at a minimum have a combined distance of 12" horizontal and vertical when measured 3" straight back from the tip. So if a car was 4" on the horizontal then it must be 8" on the vertical direction. Again this is when it is measured 3" straight back from the very frontal tip.
????????????????????
Again this is just a suggestion!!!! Please don't just say how stupid it is, but give some other suggestions!!!!! And how we can test/inspect them easily at a race.
A few cars have problems that are unsafe for all cars on the track. We need to fix this so they can be told they can not race unless they fix the problem because of this rule!
Mike
MIke,
How about just having a vote on just whether the improved 'Electrathon Entry Inspection ' form and ' To put on a race' sheet should be used in the manual ( since they do not seem to be a problem )?
Voting on the other rules might mean a poorly thought out rule might pass and we would all have to live with it despite the hardships it might cause some racers.
This reason I would like to see a new manual is so that potential new racers do not see the 2010/2011 Handbook and think the sport is no longer active. Just changing the date on the cover would solve that problem.
It looks like the shape of a car's nose is the biggest stumbling block we're having...
Mike Frederick mentioned (posted above) my cars as a possible example, so here they are. Notice that they do not come to a sharp point, but each car has a 1.25" diameter flat fender washer integrated into the nose. That was deliberate to reduce the possibility of puncturing the bodywork of another car in a collision. Mike Hodgertt suggested a plywood template with a 6" diameter half-circle cut out to use as a gauge, so I made one. I checked the noses on my cars both horizontally and vertically and happily discovered that they would pass this type of inspection, but I would guess that some of the cars here in Florida might not. Most would pass one way, but possibly not the other. For example, one of our long-time competitor's cars would easily pass the horizontal test because it is about 20 inches wide and straight across, but vertically it has the body sloped downward and has about a 2" diameter rolled shape at the front bottom edge. Even the Blue Sky Aerocoupes, with the lip at the bottom, may be questionable depending on how the gauge is used. The "go; no-go gauge" could be a good idea with a little refinement and instruction on how it should be used. Also, whatever we decide on design, maybe we should include a delay in enforcement. For example, state that cars must comply by January 2014. That way we aren't immediately scrapping half the cars in the country right in the middle of the current season.
""The structural part (rigid fiberglass, or metal bracing, or ??) of the nose cone's very tip must BE REASONABLY BLUNT AND NOT HAVE A SPIKED NARROW POINTED shape and the front area must at a minimum have a combined distance of 12" horizontal and vertical when measured 3" straight back from the tip. (Example: If a car was 4" on the horizontal then it must be 8" on the vertical direction.) Again this is when it is measured 3" straight back from the very frontal tip of the car.""
With this rule Blue Sky cars with the flat bottom but fairly wide and blunt nose above that would pass, and the 20" wide and 2" tall Florida car would pass, Cloud's cars would pass as they are 4.2" X 8+", my car would pass as it is 5" wide and 8" tall.
Can anyone come up with a better idea or wording? Again we all agree that we need a rule like this but it is hard to put into black and white what is safe and what is not.
So are peopel voting now? You said you split your votes.
Aaron
Honestly after reading the last couple of posts for this rule change this is getting way too complex and fustrating for everyone who chimes in...
How about just a rule that says no pointed nose cones/frontal areas on the cars period. No fusing around with a stupid guage that would stir up arguments and set the start time even further back before a race. Just keep it simple, which is one of the main goals with Electrathon racing.
Examples: rounded points like my car, wide areas like Mike's car or the Centennial cars are okay; just NO POINTED NOSE CONES AT ALL. Best example I can come up with is (Mike or anyone that was in the 2010 race season can agree) car #107 driven by Alec Robertson/Preston Henne. They had a definate pointed nose on their car that did come to a long point. Another exampe would be the Clouds newest car, not the purple pink car, but the white car. This car does have a point on the nose of the car, but they have a tire up front and the point is not that long compared to #107.
Look at the following examples I've got on here. These are photos from the 2010/2011 season in the Northwest.
My car #59 has a rounded point that is down low. I would say this would pass according to the no pointed cones/frontal area.
Same goes for #51, rounded and down low.
Centennial #12 would pass. Has a wide area, and the 'point' in this case is down low.
Hood River #32 would pass. Wide area up front.
The Henry's #2 (the yellow/white car with the smiley face) would pass. Point is ramped down, and is sloping downward too. Yes, it does sort of have a point, but it's down low so this wouldn't be a issue.
Mike's car #38 would pass. It's rounded and there is such a wide area on the front it can't pierce another car.
Florida car #8 would not pass. Point is up and not low to the ground. Plus the point is not rounded (correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm using this as an example. No hard feelings against you or your car.)
Kirk's #555 would pass. Yes, it is sort of a point. But it's rounded and I've seen his car when it's not moving and the nose does sit low to the ground. Plus it's vertical as well on the front.
#107 would not pass. Has a definate point on the front. Point is also up high so this could pose as a threat incase of a t-bone situation.
Clouds #41 would pass. Yes, it does have a point up high, but there is a vertical section on the actual nose of the car since it is front wheel drive. And it's a short rounded point.
Pictures like these could be used for good/bad examples in the updated rule book if that is still happening or not with an explanation of what you (the builder) is trying to aim for. This is my suggestion to keep things more simple for everyone, and to keep people from getting more agitated as well.
Zaine
Yes, all of the registered members from 2012 or 2013 received an email saying that they need to cast their votes by Midnight Monday night to be counted from Aimee last week.
We are having a board meeting on Tuesday at 4:00 that all are welcome to call in on to go over the results and work on other items.
Mike
Zaine gives some examples above and his idea of whether some of them would pass or not. The nose on the #8 Florida car is made of foam and won't punch through anything stronger than cardboard. As the rules are written right now, the only car I see there that is obviously in violation of them is the #107 car. That nose cone is pointed and may violate rule 5.6 (5.6 - The vehicle must not have any sharp edges, corners or protrusions that could cause injury. Any questionable exposed portion of the vehicle should be cut off, rounded or blunted with durable padding.) However, if that nose cone on #107 is made of foam or poster board, or some other collapsable material, is it still illegal? Cloud's #41 is nicely blunted, but it sits so high that the concern here might be that that nose would come into the driver compartment of another, lower car. Should we now propose a maximum height for noses? Anything we do is going to "open a can of worms".
After much thought, I believe that the rules 3, 4 and 5 are clear enough as written and should be left as is. It then falls on the tech inspectors to exercise common sense in matters of safety.
I was just suggesting a solution for the nose cone issue. But I do agree, it should be a no brainer to the inspector like MeanGreen said.
The rules he mentioned should be left alone and decided by a inspector with commone sense, then if there is an issue then the team has until the next race to have it fixed/modified/etc.
Zaine
-- Edited by Zaine Stapleton on Tuesday 5th of February 2013 02:42:07 AM
I have raced cars for years and am familiar with the rulebooks of a few organizations when it comes to roll bars and harnesses. When I read the EA book regarding belts, I was quite surprised by rule 18.4. It indicates that the shoulder belt mounting point must be 3" below the shoulders. This differs greatly from all auto-racing rules. Unfortunately it does not only differ, but it is contrary, would not be legal in any of them, and is unsafe.
When the top mounting point is significantly below the shoulder, any use of that belt will cause spinal compression. If you think about what would happen when a person is thrown violently against the belts, it would be akin to tightening those belts with hundreds of pounds of force. If that belt is pulling downward, it will compress their spine. Some organization is mandate seatbelt mounting angles of up to 30° above horizontal and 5° below. Some say 20 in each direction. One says 20 above, 10 below. Some say that the belt must leave the shoulder as close to 90° from the spine, but not to be more than 40° below horizontal (this is written for consideration of car cars where the driver is very reclined. As the rule is now, and how the illustration in the rule book represents it, this will cause spinal compression, which is serious. From what I have heard, speculation is that any allowance for the mounting point to be below the shoulder is only to allow for drivers that are slightly taller than who the car was designed for, but that technical inspectors prefer horizontal and above mountings.
So the diagram accompanying rule 18.4 represents a belt system that would be specifically illegal in all forms of auto racing I have come across. Technically no angle is given, so it would be possible to be within the 3 inch rule as long as the horizontal distance between the mounting point and the shoulders allowed the angle to be shallow enough to come within the 5° or 20° requirement. But I strongly believe that the mounting point rule needs to be changed. If it were a scale drawing, with that 50° angle or so, it would definitely fail.
I propose that rule 18.4 be changed to "The shoulder belt must be attached to a structural point behind the shoulders. The belt must be within 20° of horizontal between the mounting point and driver's shoulders. Belt mounting points above the height of the shoulder is preferred."
I don't want to sound like I'm complaining, but I have a few more safety related items. For the roll bar, in rule 4.4 it shows that the helmet must lie below a line extending from the top of the front tires to the top of the roll bar. I have two separate issues with this rule.
In auto racing usually there is another measurement in this rule, like the helmet must not come within 1 or 2 inches (depends on the organization) of that line. This allows for the dynamic forces involved, like how the seatbelts stretch or how the shoulder/neck area will deform to allow that portion of the body to move towards the top of the car when gravity switches direction. It also attempts to compensate for any curvature of the ground. So I think we should change the rule to include this extra area, whether it be 1 inch or 2. I understand that this may mean modifying current roll bars, but this is safety we're dealing with.
My second issue with rule 4.4 is that the line in question goes to the top of the tires. In auto racing this line goes to a hard point. Tires are not hard, and in a roll over can deflect significantly if still fully inflated, and are sure to be inches shorter if not inflated. So if you imagine a scenario where a team pumps their wheels up to 90psi, debeads a front tire, then rolls, if they are right up against that line, their head will be certain to not only hit, but have to absorb the weight of the car until their spine compresses (not even talking about issues with 18.4 here) an amount created by the missing tire.
So I propose that rule 4.4 be edited to "The driver's helmet must be at least one inch from a straight line drawn between the top of the roll bar to the top of the rim of a front wheel (not tire!) or the highest structural point when the driver is securely belted in the driving position.
And now I move onto arm restraints. I witnessed the roll over at FSAE in 2004, and both the driver involved and I know for a fact that his arm restraints saved his arms. The first thing he did when he realized he was going over is put his arms up. I saw the restraints go taut. If he hadn't been wearing them, he would have had his hands up. In a vehicle traveling forward, reaching up and touching the ground almost ensures that the driver's hands will be abraded badly, wrists will possibly be broken, and even worse, it is possible for the deriver's hands to wind up crushed by the roll bar as they catch on the ground and are forced backward by the moving ground. It is very real and very serious. Restraints that loop into the lap belts of a 5 or 6 point harness and don't allow upward movement above that line referred to in 4.4 prevent all of this. Simply undoing the harness releases the restraints. Of course, I only think that these are necessary on open top cars.
So I propose the renaming of section 18.0 to Safety Restraints, and the addition of rule 18.6 "Arm restraints are required and must be worn such that the driver can release them and exit the vehicle unassisted regardless of the vehicles position. Arm restraints must be commercially manufactured. Note: Arm restraints certified to SFI Standard 3.3 and labeled as such meet this requirement." I pulled that directly out of the current FSAE rule book.
That is all I have. I regret that my first post is one that will likely stir up a hornets nest, but I am trying to look out for the safety of everyone involved. I'm sure that teams could be grandfathered in if we want to change these without jeopardizing existing vehicles, but that would be blatantly allowing them to race a car recognized as less-than-safe. Hopefully my future postings will be more light-hearted and concern more interesting stuff like design or the competition.
Have a good one,
Bill
Yes, you are pretty late to the game for ths year. The rule change voting is already underway. I will move your post the next year i that is OK wilth you.
This is the area that anyone can post any opinion about rule changes in. No problem with stiring up anything. I think some of your points are valid, but let me offer some observations too.
I the seatbelt does not hold you down by your shoulders it is very likely that it will be your necksuporting the stress. Hurt backs are bad, hurt necks are worse.
We have worked for years trying to gt participants to bring the rollbars forward and up. It has been a struggle, but most cars are now far more safer/better built than 5 years ago.they used to havethe driver sitting in front of th bar, that wasnot good, now te bar goes over the top area of the helmit.
Ive heard the arguments over the years for wrist restraints. I have seen a number (a lot) of rorrovers over the years. I have never seen a hand or arm injured. I have seen drivers who were able to reach up and push their car upright and quickly able to drive away to clear the track, improving trach safety.
I wuld like others to post their opinions and observations too.
Aaron
Wrist restraints: As most people in the NW can tell you, I have had my car upside down more than almost any other car over the last 10 years. I choose to hit curbs, barriers, etc. instead of another car since I don't want to take out a student's car as I feel it is mostly their race and I am just there to have fun (and try to win!!). I also had a father son team that decided to take me out at 4 of 5 races in Lacey Washington they were in and put me into curbs with an 'accidental bump' at just the wrong time. I have gone end over end twice, rolled over sideways a few times. In all of those I did not need wrist restraints. As Aaron said, twice when I just rolled upside down or onto my side I was able flip myself over and get out of the way and even won a race after that mishap. I have seen about 300 races with as many as 72 cars in a race, and I have never seen anyone receive any serious injury by not having their wrists restrained--a couple of scrapped arms that might have happened anyway. There are times that I think that wrist restraints might cause problems as drivers need to move handles quickly or reach something in their cars and not be able to because a wrist restraint tangles or just make the process more difficult. I for one am against wrist or ankle restraints that others seem to think are necessary. I feel that if the car is build so that the driver's legs are covered above the knees then the legs can not escape (rule 5.3 and 5.5). I also feel that it the sides of the car are at shoulder level or higher when the driver is buckled in then the driver should not be able to reach over and put their arm out and place it between their car and another or touch the ground unless the car is not upright (rule 5.2 and 5.5). I feel that if our cars are inspected correctly so that they are built correctly and according to the rules then the need for restraints in not needed. This is like a battery box to contain the acid on a gel cell or glass mat battery--if there is a lead acid will not come out.
On your concern with the angle of the seat belts below the shoulders I feel that a few things make our rules safer the way they are written.
1) With a few exceptions (races at NASCAR tracks and 5 mile ovals) we are not going the speed of most other races that you talk about. At 30 mph you are not going to be that far in the air have a ton of momentum when you hit the ground.
2) Since a lot of cars are build as low as possible many drivers have the roll bar just above their helmet (mine is about 5" above my helmet) especially if they have a fully enclosed car. That means, like Aaron stated last night, that if a car is upside down and a driver is allowed to move even a little they will be stopped by their helmet hitting the roll bar or in a worse case hitting the pavement. Either way they will injure their neck, hit their head on the pavement and cause a concussion even with a helmet. One of our teachers in the NW rolled his car and hit his head sideways before the roll bar rule was changed to what it is now and he was knocked out and he was wearing an approved helmet!
3) Since many students do not like to wear their seat belts tight (like their pants) as it is uncomfortable they are more prone to move around when they do have wreck. If their shoulder belts are a little loose and attached above the shoulders they will move several inches toward the roll bar as they are upside down. With the shoulder belts mounted below the shoulders they will only move half of the length of the 'slack' which should be less than an inch total so they hopefully are stopped by their shoulder harness and not the roll bar/ground as they roll over. One of two major wrecks (red flags) I have seen in my 19 year and hundreds of races was when a student had his seat belts all a 'little' loose for comfort. His steering broke and he hit a tall curb at about 30 mph. Just like a gun that is not held against your shoulder when fired his momentum let him fly forward and was stopped by the seat belts after moving a couple of inches. He was taken to the hospital in an ambulance with slight internal bruising. I alway stress tightening seat belts with my students and use this as an example and still when I go around a talk to my students before a race I sometimes find seat belts loose and have to make my students tighten them up.
As far as using the top of the tires I agree with you. I have always told my students that the tires are not what counts. I have my students (an myself) put in some sort of structural 'roll bar' above their legs/knees to be safe--I admit some sneak by, but most of my students have a roll bar that comes over their head so they are OK I feel. I like a 'leg roll bar' because with a stubbed axle on the front tires it they hit a curb on a corner there is a very good chance the axle will break or at least bend and not be there to support the fount of the car in a roll over. This is something that was talked about a few years ago and I was voted down on my suggestion as many of the cars (especially the high speed ones) want a very low and sleek car body for aerodynamics and don't want to have the body higher than the top of the wheels. Like a said if a well made roll bar extends out in front of the helmets then I feel that they are safe.
Mike
This is a mess.
1.) Good! The new form looks much better. I appreciate that there's more than 2 driver information areas.
3.) Oh, please don't do this. The open class teams in our area will kick our collective butt, haha. Let car turnout determine what classes there should be. If 1 college team shows up, sure, lump them together. But if we have 3 or 4 of each, let them have their own classes. Leave it to the discretion of the race steward/event organizer/authority person. Hillsborough Commmunity College casts its ballot against this change.
4.) This rule seems sensible but extreme/unclear. The only part that bugs me is where it says "Texting is banned whenever the driver is physically in the car." Really? ANY time? Even before the race, sitting in the pit? Some clarification needed here.
5.) I agree with what ProEV said. The main point of this rule is to stop cars from popping tires and digging into the track, coming to a quick stop that drivers behind you can't react to quickly enough. If you enforce a new rule for a stock ground clearance, you shouldn't get rid of the old one.
8.) Is this rule serious? Did someone put a big pointy spike on the front of their car or something? This is ridiculous, haha. Any kind of test to "pass or fail" cars is going to end up disqualifying perfectly safe cars. Just have a "no spikes/blades/chainsaws on the front of your car" rule. I really doubt any reasonably well built car would be pierced by a somewhat pointy shaped nose.
2, 9-12.) Perfectly reasonable, sounds fine.
-- Edited by Nicodemus Brothers on Wednesday 10th of April 2013 09:52:38 AM
Plus at the speeds we attain (even on the longer tracks like "back east") the aerodynamics just do not call for a long pointed nose..... I mean look at a boeing 737, 747, or 777.. these aircraft fly at 8/10 of a mach (close to 600mph) and they have a pretty blunt nose... the "pointy nose" we all equate with "fast" is not needed til you break mach 1 (over 700mph) somehow I just don't think we are going to attain these speeds during a race....