PROPOSED CHANGE (2/10/13): Do away with college class and join universities to adult/open class. Only student (HS) and open classes with corresponding battery divisions so four less classes to maintain at races. Rule listing on Page 12.
Aimee Hart said
Feb 11, 2013
-When the club began the university students were no more prepared for building and racing cars than high school students. With the growing interest in electronic vehicles coupled with many graduating seniors having participated during high school this is no longer the case. To ensure high school students especially those just beginning in this field not to be at a disadvantage when racing we want to change having college students listed with high school students. Also to cut down on the number of classes being run without reducing battery classes we want to join them with adults in open class so race days arent as long. The battery classes are: standard batteries, solar panels standard batteries, experimental batteries, solar with experimental batteries
Vic556 said
Feb 15, 2013
Why do the race days run long? In Fla. everyone races at the same time and the score keepers sort out the class winners. We run two races in one day with a two hour break between races. To drive 150 to 250 miles for a one hour race wouldn't attract many cars in our area.
In our area the high school cars beat the college cars about half the time. The colleges are not big budget programs. The open class cars on the other hand are far and away superior. To combine them could discourage some of them.
We use the 3 cars make a class rule. If there are not three cars they race up a class. We don't have the number of cars as other areas so it works for us.
Vic Nieves
Program Director
Electrathon Of Tampa Bay
mhodgertt said
Feb 15, 2013
On this rule the problem is that if we have adult, college, and student classes in each area of standard battery, experimental battery, solar/standard battery, and solar/experimental battery that gives us 12 separate classes to sort out after the race and give out top three trophies too (36 trophies), etc. Many of us feel like this is just too many classes and if we can make it 1/3 the number of classes it would be more manageable. If an area or specific race wants to keep that class (or add more) they can add any class they want to according to page 29 under "Additional Divisions" but we would not be required to across the nation. In same areas where there are 10 cars at a race it sorts itself out because they will not have all 12 classes represented or in numbers to compete against someone else, but if there are 65 cars at the race it is just too much with this many divisions.
Nick Gupta said
Feb 22, 2013
In only see one problem with joining the high school and college classes. Colleges tend to have much greater funding and resources to develop their ideas. Students at colleges have access to professor and professional design software, as well as a much greater chance of having better equipment for construction. While this does not directly correlate to better performance, I do believe that college students receive an "upper hand" when compared to high school students. It would be more fitting to throw these college students into the open class with the adults. A 21 year-old and a 17 year-old have incredibly different potentials; however, a 21 year-old and an adult do not. I know that this is not conducive to time and racing, but maybe making individuals draw numbers, either one or two, to determine which race they will be in if too many cars are registered. Just a suggestion that I hope you will consider.
On a side note, I think the solar-class is a little more complicated, so you will probably find very few, if any, high schools competing in the solar/experimental, solar/standard, or the experimental class, which removes three classes from nearly every race. Colleges are more likely, but even then, not so sure colleges use all these classes. Given that the solar category is a unique class (and less popular) that caters to a more advanced group of competitors, making it only solar/experimental would probably be fine and deleting the solar/standard, as most people who have access to solar capabilities will also have access to experimental-type batteries. So, I think most races currently run anywhere from 4-6 different classes, even though the 12 do exist. Not so sure it is necessary to make cuts, but if so, I find it that they would be best made by cutting the type of class rather than merging classes.
mhodgertt said
Feb 22, 2013
Nick, the rule is to merge college into the adult class not the high school for the reasons you listed along with the idea that many college students also made cars in high schools.
bobfranz said
May 2, 2013
are the bulk of cars high school? This should be the main focus for E/A. The nation has just noticed that we are not creating enough engineers for our needs. STEM is a buzz and E/A should take advantage of this to grow. I would make a rookie class for high school first year cars built by students. This would create more interest. My old school, Los Altos just built their first car in 8 years. THey are real rookies and should not have to compete with schools who have experiece. Lets find ways to bring the future on board.
Stevie G said
Jun 11, 2013
I can see putting a rookie stripe on a car so the rest of the racers know who they are, but I do not see the point of making a seperate class. Build a car and give it your best effort. This was our first year with a car, and we did alright.
bobfranz said
Jun 12, 2013
The idea is to have as many winners as possible to promote the sport to new schools. No one says that new cars can not compete but there is no substitute for experience. Being the best of the first year teams is a good reward.
electrathon said
Jun 30, 2013
Vic556 wrote:
We use the 3 cars make a class rule. If there are not three cars they race up a class. We don't have the number of cars as other areas so it works for us.
Vic Nieves
Program Director
Electrathon Of Tampa Bay
Vic,
What do you do if you have one car show up that is a solar car, built by students? Is it told to ru demonstration only? Is it grouped with the other students? If so, what if it wins? I realize the input from the solar panel only has a few percent gain, if it wins a few percent is a huge issue.
What about a single college car? Demonstration or grouped with? Grouping the collage with the students is a horrid, totally unfair thing to do.
Here is what we do now, and Mike and I together run more races than any other group. The collage students always are grouped with the adults. The separate class has never happened. If a solar car showed up, they would be running demonstration only. Experimental cars also always run demonstration only.
My personal opinion is the experimental battery class is the beginning of the end of the sport. I may be wrong, but personally I feel that we should be all equalized, with limited power. Giving us all more/bigger/faster is not good, just makes it easier to go fast. The sport didn't used to be about fast, it was about squeaking out a little more out of not enough. I remember the days when many/most of the cars did not finish. It was a far better learning experience in those days.
Aaron
mhodgertt said
Jul 3, 2013
Aaron, I agree in a lot of ways I miss the teaching and learning that went on in those old days with the often hated comment my Lon of "And what did we learn today?" Mike
electrathon said
Jul 4, 2013
mhodgertt wrote:
Aaron, I agree in a lot of ways I miss the teaching and learning that went on in those old days with the often hated comment my Lon of "And what did we learn today?" Mike
Lon never once said "what did we learn today" to the winner.Â
-- Edited by electrathon on Thursday 4th of July 2013 06:17:59 PM
Nicodemus Brothers said
Jul 11, 2013
Vic556 wrote:
Why do the race days run long? In Fla. everyone races at the same time and the score keepers sort out the class winners. We run two races in one day with a two hour break between races. To drive 150 to 250 miles for a one hour race wouldn't attract many cars in our area.
In our area the high school cars beat the college cars about half the time. The colleges are not big budget programs. The open class cars on the other hand are far and away superior. To combine them could discourage some of them.
We use the 3 cars make a class rule. If there are not three cars they race up a class. We don't have the number of cars as other areas so it works for us.
Vic Nieves
Program Director
Electrathon Of Tampa Bay
Thanks Vic. I agree and can tell you from experience that colleges are not overflowing with money and experienced people. The open class teams around here blow away the college and high school cars. In fact even the high schools sometimes do better than the college class. I understand that in other areas it may be totally unfair to lump high school and college together, but over here it's unfair to lump open class and college together. Again Hillsborough Community College casts its vote against this change in favor of leaving the classes up to the discretion of the race steward, using the 3 car rule. Really, we don't have any problems with cars showing up trying to race solar or advanced battery class. Maybe just run the outlyers in an "other" class if there's only one or 2 of them?
electrathon said
Jul 16, 2013
Nicodemus Brothers wrote:
Vic556 wrote:
Why do the race days run long? In Fla. everyone races at the same time and the score keepers sort out the class winners. We run two races in one day with a two hour break between races. To drive 150 to 250 miles for a one hour race wouldn't attract many cars in our area.
In our area the high school cars beat the college cars about half the time. The colleges are not big budget programs. The open class cars on the other hand are far and away superior. To combine them could discourage some of them.
We use the 3 cars make a class rule. If there are not three cars they race up a class. We don't have the number of cars as other areas so it works for us.
Vic Nieves
Program Director
Electrathon Of Tampa Bay
Thanks Vic. I agree and can tell you from experience that colleges are not overflowing with money and experienced people. The open class teams around here blow away the college and high school cars. In fact even the high schools sometimes do better than the college class. I understand that in other areas it may be totally unfair to lump high school and college together, but over here it's unfair to lump open class and college together. Again Hillsborough Community College casts its vote against this change in favor of leaving the classes up to the discretion of the race steward, using the 3 car rule. Really, we don't have any problems with cars showing up trying to race solar or advanced battery class. Maybe just run the outlyers in an "other" class if there's only one or 2 of them?
The collage cars I see are usually the cars that engineering classes have built and often they have some very complex high end parts in them, they also usually loose. Many of the student cars beat the adult cars, but not all the time. Sort of like men's and women's sports, the women can race in the men's class (now renamed "open") but the men can not race in the women's class. The largest knowledge availability/base is in the collage class, just many do not use it well. Schools have by far the largest ability to raise money over open class competitors, but adults are more likely to have personal money they can choose to spend.
Bottom line is kids can beat adults and can beat kids. Collage adds a third leg to the directions. What about younger drivers? Unlicensed drivers are very likely to be beat by older high schoolers. What about low income schools compared to high income schools? The more you complicate the issues the more complicated it gets. Lets make it simple, not complicated.
ProEV said
Jul 16, 2013
electrathon wrote:
...often they have some very complex high end parts in them, they also usually loose.
Loctite might help.
electrathon said
Jul 17, 2013
ProEV wrote:
electrathon wrote:
...often they have some very complex high end parts in them, they also usually loose.
Loctite might help.
It is usualy the small details that make or break the competition. We had a guy a few years ago that was literally a genious, but his car usually broke down durring the race. He could explain to you (well, not me, went over my head) why his car was the best, but he usually lost, often loosing bad. Sometimes the wheels fell off due to something breaking.
Collage groups have a lot of advantages no one else does. They have maturity many of the high schoolers do not have. They have access to equipment that is often not avaioable to high schools. They have the ability to fundraise that open class does not have. Properly administered, the collage cars should be in the top of most of the races.
PROPOSED CHANGE (2/10/13): Do away with college class and join universities to adult/open class. Only student (HS) and open classes with corresponding battery divisions so four less classes to maintain at races. Rule listing on Page 12.
Why do the race days run long? In Fla. everyone races at the same time and the score keepers sort out the class winners. We run two races in one day with a two hour break between races. To drive 150 to 250 miles for a one hour race wouldn't attract many cars in our area.
In our area the high school cars beat the college cars about half the time. The colleges are not big budget programs. The open class cars on the other hand are far and away superior. To combine them could discourage some of them.
We use the 3 cars make a class rule. If there are not three cars they race up a class. We don't have the number of cars as other areas so it works for us.
Vic Nieves
Program Director
Electrathon Of Tampa Bay
On a side note, I think the solar-class is a little more complicated, so you will probably find very few, if any, high schools competing in the solar/experimental, solar/standard, or the experimental class, which removes three classes from nearly every race. Colleges are more likely, but even then, not so sure colleges use all these classes. Given that the solar category is a unique class (and less popular) that caters to a more advanced group of competitors, making it only solar/experimental would probably be fine and deleting the solar/standard, as most people who have access to solar capabilities will also have access to experimental-type batteries. So, I think most races currently run anywhere from 4-6 different classes, even though the 12 do exist. Not so sure it is necessary to make cuts, but if so, I find it that they would be best made by cutting the type of class rather than merging classes.
are the bulk of cars high school? This should be the main focus for E/A. The nation has just noticed that we are not creating enough engineers for our needs. STEM is a buzz and E/A should take advantage of this to grow. I would make a rookie class for high school first year cars built by students. This would create more interest. My old school, Los Altos just built their first car in 8 years. THey are real rookies and should not have to compete with schools who have experiece. Lets find ways to bring the future on board.
The idea is to have as many winners as possible to promote the sport to new schools. No one says that new cars can not compete but there is no substitute for experience. Being the best of the first year teams is a good reward.
Vic,
What do you do if you have one car show up that is a solar car, built by students? Is it told to ru demonstration only? Is it grouped with the other students? If so, what if it wins? I realize the input from the solar panel only has a few percent gain, if it wins a few percent is a huge issue.
What about a single college car? Demonstration or grouped with? Grouping the collage with the students is a horrid, totally unfair thing to do.
Here is what we do now, and Mike and I together run more races than any other group. The collage students always are grouped with the adults. The separate class has never happened. If a solar car showed up, they would be running demonstration only. Experimental cars also always run demonstration only.
My personal opinion is the experimental battery class is the beginning of the end of the sport. I may be wrong, but personally I feel that we should be all equalized, with limited power. Giving us all more/bigger/faster is not good, just makes it easier to go fast. The sport didn't used to be about fast, it was about squeaking out a little more out of not enough. I remember the days when many/most of the cars did not finish. It was a far better learning experience in those days.
Aaron
I agree in a lot of ways I miss the teaching and learning that went on in those old days with the often hated comment my Lon of "And what did we learn today?"
Mike
Lon never once said "what did we learn today" to the winner.Â
-- Edited by electrathon on Thursday 4th of July 2013 06:17:59 PM
Thanks Vic. I agree and can tell you from experience that colleges are not overflowing with money and experienced people. The open class teams around here blow away the college and high school cars. In fact even the high schools sometimes do better than the college class. I understand that in other areas it may be totally unfair to lump high school and college together, but over here it's unfair to lump open class and college together. Again Hillsborough Community College casts its vote against this change in favor of leaving the classes up to the discretion of the race steward, using the 3 car rule. Really, we don't have any problems with cars showing up trying to race solar or advanced battery class. Maybe just run the outlyers in an "other" class if there's only one or 2 of them?
The collage cars I see are usually the cars that engineering classes have built and often they have some very complex high end parts in them, they also usually loose. Many of the student cars beat the adult cars, but not all the time. Sort of like men's and women's sports, the women can race in the men's class (now renamed "open") but the men can not race in the women's class. The largest knowledge availability/base is in the collage class, just many do not use it well. Schools have by far the largest ability to raise money over open class competitors, but adults are more likely to have personal money they can choose to spend.
Bottom line is kids can beat adults and can beat kids. Collage adds a third leg to the directions. What about younger drivers? Unlicensed drivers are very likely to be beat by older high schoolers. What about low income schools compared to high income schools? The more you complicate the issues the more complicated it gets. Lets make it simple, not complicated.
Loctite might help.
It is usualy the small details that make or break the competition. We had a guy a few years ago that was literally a genious, but his car usually broke down durring the race. He could explain to you (well, not me, went over my head) why his car was the best, but he usually lost, often loosing bad. Sometimes the wheels fell off due to something breaking.
Collage groups have a lot of advantages no one else does. They have maturity many of the high schoolers do not have. They have access to equipment that is often not avaioable to high schools. They have the ability to fundraise that open class does not have. Properly administered, the collage cars should be in the top of most of the races.