Electrathon America Forum

electrathon · administrator

What does disqualify mean?

mhodgertt · EA President

My understanding is that it depends on the infraction.

If he is DQed for not enough ballast then the laps go to '0.' This is because they were not legal to be on the track to begin with. Also with this reason it is usually not discovered until the end of the race and there is not another reasonable solution.

Another reason to get DQed with '0' laps would be cheating. Such as switching batteries during a race, cutting the track short by doing something like intentionally going into/out of a pit area or parking lot so that they gain a lap by crossing the counting grid twice without going all the way around the track.

But if the DQ is because of driving unsafe (blocking, cutting off, bumping, etc.) during the race, loosing ballast during the race, using a phone to call/text, doing something wrong during the race after being warned (raising head above roll-bar, opening face shield, arms outside car, etc.) then they get the laps they have to that point but they and the car are pulled from the race.

It they do things wrong and are DQed at more than one race then the area race stewards can say they are not allowed to drive for the rest of the season.

Let me know if others agree or disagree with this.

Kyle Keenan · Veteran Member

Mike, sounds very fair, and similar to a lot of the other series I have competed in.

Zaine Stapleton · Senior Member

I agree with you Mike, what you said makes sense. And it is fair enough. You should always check your ballast weight before the race if you need to change something. I always add a couple extra pounds to my car just to be safe. Everyone always loses some weight during the race due to all of the excitement going on.

electrathon · administrator

I found this defination online:

DEFINITION OF DISQUALIFICATION

To make a driver or car ineligible from participation in an event or from further participating in an event or from receiving credit for an official finishing position, with the resulting loss of prize monies and points for that event and possible fine and/or suspension of driver, owner or crew.

What I am reading above is this defination is too strict? It is pretty much how I have always interperated disqualifing someone.

I am asking this question because I have in the past disqualifed racers. Every pre-race meeting I conduct I warn drivers to secure ballast properly and that it falls out of the car for any reason, their car will be disqualifed (To those in other areas, this was a serious safety issue in the Electron Run days. Once we started enforcing this rule we stopped most of the 10 pound weight plates rolling down the track almost instantly. It used to happen more often than not.)

Do we need to add to the rulebook definations for disqualification? If there are differant penalties associated with the word, we need to have a defination of the penality that will be issued. On page 36 of the EA handbook it talks about disqalifacation, i guess it is a little unclear what it really means.

Input from both racers and competitors of other styles and kinds of racing are really appreciated.

electrathon · administrator

Kyle Keenan wrote:

Mike, sounds very fair, and similar to a lot of the other series I have competed in.

Kyle,

Do you have any links to rule sets that show this? I have spent over two hours looking for any defination of "disqualify" that represents a variable penalty for it and so far have found none.

Most of the definations I have found have said, "removed or barred from competition". I have found no referances to retaining place standings. The places I have found referance all refered to the removal of standings. This has been constant through all forms of competitions and races.

To me, it seems if you are disqualified you would always loose your standings for the race in question. Other punishments could be used if you were not disqualified, but in a disqualifacation, you should loose your standings.

I am looking for all input from everyone here, weather I am right or wrong.

Aaron

mhodgertt · EA President

I am OK with what ever the rest of the group feels is right. It seems to me that if a person is DQed for something but was OK until that point that the laps they have until then should count. Unless they are DQed on the last lap or two they will still be way down the standings. But in the past we usually have had the penalty be loss of all laps in the NW. I feel that that is harsh for a driver that raced the first 40 minutes well and then had a problem that causes them to be DQed. Be that problem be an equipment failure that causes a battery or ballast to come lose, or poor driving, or ????

We should be somewhat consistent with other race organizations though I guess. Do those other organizations say that the DQed car losses all laps or just that "is removed or barred from competition" from that point on?

Mike

Kyle Keenan · Veteran Member

http://cms.scca.com/documents/Club%20Forms/2010%20Tech%20Forms/sporting.%20JAN-.pdf

Aaron, that's what I can come up with right now. Not a full list as to "This = this" but I will do my best to find something displaying penalties. Keep in mind, that the official has the ultimate right as to penalties, and usually will outline them at a driver's meeting after practice.

Here are things I do, 100% know from experience(not from me driving though):

-Any Car/Driver combo that comes in underweight is an automatic DQ.

-Any Car-To-Car contact is not a DQ, but the drivers are talked to after the race and given a warning. If Driver A says Driver B cut him off so he intentionally hit him, the Steward is the one who makes the call on that. (DQ in my book, as most racers here are high school kids and shouldnt be hitting each other)

-If we are involved in an accident, SCCA reserves the right to black flag us to make sure we are alright and able to operate the vehicle.

-We also can recieve a Black flag with an orange circle (We call it the meatball) which means something is mechanically wrong with our car and it needs to be fixed immediately.

-Failure to follow the flags and basic rules of the road gets us called to the "penalty box", where they black flag us to talk to us.

-If we get out of our cars in an unsafe manner while on track (unless there is a fire, etc), we get fined.

-Any car found with any illegal parts after the event, can be DQ'ed as well, however mainly results in a penalty (-5 positions on grid, -10 positions on grid, etc).

-Any safety gear that is not worn during the event, can get you a DQ as well. But, if SCCA sees it (Such as a glove off, hair below the helmet, etc) they can black flag us and ask us to put it back on.

In terms of Electrathon racing, here are some "penalty examples" that SCCA would follow:

-Driver underweight, DQ, loss of laps, and loss of points. (We do, however, keep one point for starting the race)

-Illegal batteries, honestly, up to the race director. (-5 laps, -10 laps, DQ, etc)
(Now, on the other hand, if ALL drivers agree PRIOR to the race that So So can run them, then it is indeed legal)

-Unsafe driving (rolled black, followed by waiving black, then DQ if problem contines)

-Loose parts (Mirror dragging, battery falling out, etc, Black flag until problem is SAFELY fixed, battery re-secured, etc)

-Weight falls out of the car, if the driver stops in a safe manor off-course within the lap of losing the weight, and re-secures the weight SAFELY, I see no need for a penalty, as the driver just spent 5-10 mins fixing his problem and lost several laps.

-Power on the vehicle being shut off should not be a "DQ" unless a team uses it for a "competitive advantage." (Example, Joe Joe in Car 44 is having a terminal fall off of his battery, and can see it sparking between his legs. The power can be shut off provided he is OUT OF THE CAR and making repairs. Now, on the other hand if Joe Joe is 5 mins from the end of the race, and sitting on the side of the course leading up to start/finish, his power must remain on.)

-Safety gear. If a driver does not have his gear properly on and fastened, he can be DQ'ed until the issue is solved. I cannot tell you how many times I have been on course in an electrathon car and seen someone completely LEAN out of their car to look around their roll bar behind them. Belts should always be tight to the driver, loose belts are NOT SAFE and should be an immediate black flag. If the driver states it's a visibility problem, he should consider better mirrors for his vehicle.

-Any cheating, of ANY SORT, should have a DQ. Even if Joe Joe in Car 44 finishes 7th out of 9 cars, and is found to have two illegal batteries, he should be DQ'ed. If you're going to enforce rules for one driver, enforce them for all.

-Not attending the Driver's Meeting usually results in a Start from the back.

Contact, here are some examples:

-Driver A is following Driver B, Driver B runs into the back of driver A while Driver A is slowing for a turn. Driver B should then be Black Flagged and talked to for Unsafe Driving, Next offense is a DQ.

-Driver A and Driver B are side by side down a straight, and either making side-to-side contact or making hand gestures or comments, both drivers black flagged and talked to. Now if they were doing this for multiple times, DQ and possible loss of driving priveleges for the next event, for BOTH drivers.

-Driver A and Driver B make "conflict" after the race, by either telling one another to "learn to drive" or "You could of killed me" etc, both drivers would be talked to by race official, and of course the race official has the ultimate call as to what happens.

-Driver A doesnt like a call made to driver B and confronts the race official in a rude manor. The official can DQ him for such gestures.

Aaron, ill keep shopping around, but i'll contribute the above until I find a better example of penalties.

electrathon · administrator

Kyle,

Most of your examples line up very closely with how we are running our races. The only major differance being the dropping of ballast weight. The only specific instance (I think) in the rulebook of a mandatory DQ is dropping ballast weight. Every race I run I announce before the race that I will DQ any car that drops ballast for any reason, period. A few years ago this was a real problem, since I started this, it happens rarely.

My specific question was: If I DQ someone, do they move to the catagoty of zero laps or do they get to keep the laps they have. Example: A car is in first place, far in the lead. At 59 minutes they drop a weight plate, so they are disqualified. They are 4 laps ahead of the pack and when the race is over they are still in first place? Are they both disqualified from the race and also the winner? I know that many cars will be lower in the pace and likely disqualified earlier in the race, but things need to be consistant (I actually work very hard to be).

As best I have been able to find, in most sports, DQ means to have your place standings stripped from you. I can find referances to penalties other than DQ that do not strip your standings, but none that refer to being DQed and keeping your place.

This instance happened last year durring a race. A competitor dropped thier weight and they were DQed for it. Someone thought they should retain laps. We had never in the past done that. I am trying to get a jump on this issue before the races start this year.

Anyone from another area that the NW have input?

Kyle Keenan · Veteran Member

Ahh, makes sense now Aaron.

If we get a DQ, we lose our position, but get credit for starting the race.

For instance, when we start a race, we get 1 point.

I guess that would be the same as crediting them for 1 lap only. Basically, they get credit for rolling across start/finish once, even though they lost all of their credit for the race. Even for being DQ'ed, they still get a point over those who did not show up.

Zaine Stapleton · Senior Member

This was very similar in Soapbox Derby racing for the rally part. For rally points, if you showed up and raced, you got two points regardless if you placed or not. If you did place, then it was dictated by what you placed at the end of the day.

mhodgertt · EA President

In the NW this is sort of what we do now. If a car does not show up to a race they place as if they finished one place below the last car. So if 30 cars show up and make through inspection, all of the cars that did not show up get 31st place.

As I said I can continue with a DQed car getting the last place of those cars that show up if that is what the rest of the teams want to do.
Mike